Simon Dobbin Verdicts

[GBJ]

Something else that went unreported, was that I burnt my mouth on a cup of tea from the East Stand Tea Bar that day. The police failed to ensure the tea was at a safe temperature and then failed to ensure that I waited for it to cool before taking my first sip.

I almost, broke a rib, guffawing at that groundbreaking & revolutionary wit.

Seriously...these people are adults, they need to take responsibility. I'm sure the Police could have done things better, but apportioning blame to them is ridiculous. The Police didn't make any of this happen and should not have needed to be involved.

Seriously...

First off, if we ignore the actual incident from that day, the old bill still did not prevent the trouble before, during or after the game. Regardless if those responsible were grown adults or not, the police did not prevent it. Hardly a pat on the back moment for them, there.

Secondly, Those prosecuted, aren't all guilty, (regardless of what the history books will say) Yet the old bill have thrown a big hooligan shaped net out, to see what they can land. They were willing to land their culprit(s) at any cost. Even if it was for a lower sentence, and even if it meant innocents went down.

 

[kaymac]

Surely if you know that with 100pct certainty, GBJ, you would have offered-up evidence to help prove their innocence?

 

[Willie Coulson's Red Cheeks]

Like all tragedies, there's a string of events that lead up to it that, in hindsight or even foresight, could have been avoided.

To me, there's a lot of issues to do with the day itself, that haven't covered anyone in any glory.

Simon Dobbin was in the wrong place, at the wrong time and what happened to him, nobody deserves.

However, there are a whole host of reasons why, on a different day, none of the events needed to happen.

There's more than just the convicted who need to take a little responsibility for this.

I like reading your contributions to SZ, Andy. However, on this occasion (and during this thread), I just don't feel you have got it right. SD was brutally assaulted that evening. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies that.

Some posters have tried to blame the Cambridge thugs earlier in the day, some have tried to blame the police, some have tried to blame the jury. That is just a distraction from the real issue.

It is a great shame this thread did not turn into a way of Southend fans unanimously showing their anger at what happened to SD and offering sympathy to his family. That way, we might have been able to claw back some of the dignity and respect we, as a club and fans, have lost during this period.

 

[Ex-Member1]

In my experience the Police are easy targets when things don't go the way everybody wants them to go. It is impossible to please everyone and there will always be dissenters, people only too willing to slate the Police at every opportunity. This is a horrendous incident and was always going to be highly emotive. IMHO the Police did their best. We are all entitled to our opinions, for sure, but base them on facts where possible please, not pure emotions.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

This thread has been a shamefiul pop at the Police imho.

Where I saw the police go wrong in my own eyes is before the match. After the Cambridge mob had sneaked into the Spread and attacked Southend fans, I arrived and they were jumping about outside going crazy trying to get back in the Spread for round two. They were pushing police about and having a go at the doormen. None got arrested. That encouraged them to behave even worse. I have seen Southend fans get arrested for a lot less in other towns. Also, I don't think any got arrested or convicted of the attack inside the pub from what I have heard, that included punching innocent fans and throwing bottles and glasses at fans in a planned attack. There must be CCTV. Maybe they didn't fancy doing the paperwork that day.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I like reading your contributions to SZ, Andy. However, on this occasion (and during this thread), I just don't feel you have got it right. SD was brutally assaulted that evening. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies that.

Some posters have tried to blame the Cambridge thugs earlier in the day, some have tried to blame the police, some have tried to blame the jury. That is just a distraction from the real issue.

It is a great shame this thread did not turn into a way of Southend fans unanimously showing their anger at what happened to SD and offering sympathy to his family. That way, we might have been able to claw back some of the dignity and respect we, as a club and fans, have lost during this period.

Nobody has, as far as I am aware, tried to justify the brutal assault on Simon Dobbin. Anyone who did would surely have been unanimously shouted down by every posting member of this board.

The problem is that there is a huge divide amongst Zone members over the way the incident panned out on the day and the subsequent charges. There is little doubt that the behaviour of SOME Cambridge supporters on that day was the initial trigger for the scenes that ensued, however, there has been no evidence of any action being taken against those people, and yet there has clearly been some contrivance to get sentences on those who were (or, in some cases, weren't obviously) involved from the Southend point of view.

 

[AndyT]

I like reading your contributions to SZ, Andy. However, on this occasion (and during this thread), I just don't feel you have got it right. SD was brutally assaulted that evening. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies that.

Some posters have tried to blame the Cambridge thugs earlier in the day, some have tried to blame the police, some have tried to blame the jury. That is just a distraction from the real issue.

It is a great shame this thread did not turn into a way of Southend fans unanimously showing their anger at what happened to SD and offering sympathy to his family. That way, we might have been able to claw back some of the dignity and respect we, as a club and fans, have lost during this period.

Thank you for the kind words 'WCRC'.

In fairness, I have never felt or said that I am anything other than appalled by what happened to him. I don't think anyone feels any different to that. I have said my piece on how awful the whole tragedy is on previous threads and on this thread, as well. Nothing will ever change my view on the fact that this is an appalling crime.

The thread, however, is about the verdicts and prison sentences handed down to the defendants and my concern, as outlined in my last post, is that if people are going to serve lengthy sentences for 'conspiracy' then the net is wider, on the day, than just those convicted.

In a Utopian society, I'd like the thugs who committed the assault to serve very lengthy sentences and anyone not involved to be considered as such. In a way, by staying collective as defendants, they each signed their own fate.

Where I sit uneasily is that if they are convicted for 'conspiracy' to cause general violence during the day, then others should have been, as well. If the convictions are for 'conspiracy' to attack Simon Dobbin in particular, then that's a different matter.

I don't like our club being dragged through this anymore than anyone else. If anything, by saying that other people indirectly contributed to this, I feel I am attempting to show that our club are not only intolerant of this behavior from those involved, but any behavior from others on a matchday, which drags us into this.

No-one has been convicted from Cambridge for 'conspiracy to commit violent disorder' yet without their behavior, none of this would have happened.

That doesn't condone any actions directly against Simon Dobbin. Those people should be convicted of the awful attack and serve appropriate sentences.

 

[GBJ]

Surely if you know that with 100pct certainty, GBJ, you would have offered-up evidence to help prove their innocence?

As I wasn't there, I personally can't offer physical evidence, that proves without doubt who was/wasn't innocent. However, I don't need to. All I need to point to, is the fact that the police didn't know either. As I previously said, the police were determined to pin something, on somebody, regardless of the truth, regardless that it was a lesser charge & regardless of the consequences for those affected. All they wanted, was the case transfered from red to black.

Do you think it's acceptable for the true perpertrator(s) to receive lesser sentences? Do you believe it's ok for innocent bystanders & watchers, to be imprisoned, just to ensure the guilty ones also got collared?

Do you honestly think that's good police work?

In my experience the Police are easy targets when things don't go the way everybody wants them to go. It is impossible to please everyone and there will always be dissenters, people only too willing to slate the Police at every opportunity. This is a horrendous incident and was always going to be highly emotive. IMHO the Police did their best. We are all entitled to our opinions, for sure, but base them on facts where possible please, not pure emotions.

When the police put themselves in a position of criticism, it's only fair & right that they are criticised.

Please, for the second time of asking, can you tell me, with facts, how & why you think the police did their best, on that day.

 

[AndyT]

Nobody has, as far as I am aware, tried to justify the brutal assault on Simon Dobbin. Anyone who did would surely have been unanimously shouted down by every posting member of this board.

The problem is that there is a huge divide amongst Zone members over the way the incident panned out on the day and the subsequent charges. There is little doubt that the behaviour of SOME Cambridge supporters on that day was the initial trigger for the scenes that ensued, however, there has been no evidence of any action being taken against those people, and yet there has clearly been some contrivance to get sentences on those who were (or, in some cases, weren't obviously) involved from the Southend point of view.

Posted at the same time as mine, but this is exactly my viewpoint.

 

[kaymac]

As I wasn't there, I personally can't offer physical evidence, that proves without doubt who was/wasn't innocent. However, I don't need to. All I need to point to, is the fact that the police didn't know either. As I previously said, the police were determined to pin something, on somebody, regardless of the truth, regardless that it was a lesser charge & regardless of the consequences for those affected. All they wanted, was the case transfered from red to black.

Do you think it's acceptable for the true perpertrator(s) to receive lesser sentences? Do you believe it's ok for innocent bystanders & watchers, to be imprisoned, just to ensure the guilty ones also got collared?

Do you honestly think that's good police work?



When the police put themselves in a position of criticism, it's only fair & right that they are criticised.

Please, for the second time of asking, can you tell me, with facts, how & why you think the police did their best, on that day.

So, no proof for those you say are innocent but proof of the total ineptness of the police? Watchers could be deemed as complicit if they failed to intervene and just stood by....

 

[Ex-Member1]

As I wasn't there, I personally can't offer physical evidence, that proves without doubt who was/wasn't innocent. However, I don't need to. All I need to point to, is the fact that the police didn't know either. As I previously said, the police were determined to pin something, on somebody, regardless of the truth, regardless that it was a lesser charge & regardless of the consequences for those affected. All they wanted, was the case transfered from red to black.

Do you think it's acceptable for the true perpertrator(s) to receive lesser sentences? Do you believe it's ok for innocent bystanders & watchers, to be imprisoned, just to ensure the guilty ones also got collared?

Do you honestly think that's good police work?



When the police put themselves in a position of criticism, it's only fair & right that they are criticised.

Please, for the second time of asking, can you tell me, with facts, how & why you think the police did their best, on that day.

Like you I was not actually there. Had I have been present, I would be able to give you a definitive answer as to whether or not the Police did a good job or a bad job that fateful day. What I am saying is, don't blame the Police out of hand, try and base your views on facts rather than hearsay and emotions. Nobody is saying that the Police always do a great job, that would be naivety in the extreme but we should not be so eager to slate them without witnessing events first hand.

 

[GBJ]

So, no proof for those you say are innocent but proof of the total ineptness of the police? Watchers could be deemed as complicit if they failed to intervene and just stood by....

The police themselves proved their ineptitude, by being unable to pinpoint the responsible culprit(s), and administer the appropriate punishment. If they were able to, they would have the relevant person(s) currently serving a longer sentence, on a heftier charge.

As they were unable to do that, they instead claimed that all 12 were equally responsible. Even the jury were able to see through that.

As for standing by and watching, you're correct, you could deem it as complicit. Just as you could deem it complicit that the other patrons of the railway stood by the Windows & watched. Or the prosecution witnesses who testified. Or the thousands upon thousands of pub/club goers who stand by and watch fights on a regular basis. As far as I'm aware, there's no burden, or duty of care on an individual to intervene, especially if their own safety could became compromised.

Some might say, that there's no difference between lads standing outside a pub, being nosy, when some form of disturbance is occurring... and Simon Dobbin & friends standing outside of The Blue Boar, being nosy, when some form of disturbance is occurring.

 

[GBJ]

Like you I was not actually there. Had I have been present, I would be able to give you a definitive answer as to whether or not the Police did a good job or a bad job that fateful day. What I am saying is, don't blame the Police out of hand, try and base your views on facts rather than hearsay and emotions. Nobody is saying that the Police always do a great job, that would be naivety in the extreme but we should not be so eager to slate them without witnessing events first hand.

You stated you believed the police did a good job, and their criticism was unwarranted. So for the third and final time of asking, can you tell me WHAT they did so well, on that day, and during the case itself.

 

[Ex-Member1]

Conjecture old chap, we all have opinions, tell you what, I will stick to mine and you can stick to yours. I am playing Devil's Advocate here as we were not there. That is the point here. We don't actually know how good the Pplice response was so condemning it is unfair. By the way, ultimatums don't work with me.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Like you I was not actually there. Had I have been present, I would be able to give you a definitive answer as to whether or not the Police did a good job or a bad job that fateful day. What I am saying is, don't blame the Police out of hand, try and base your views on facts rather than hearsay and emotions. Nobody is saying that the Police always do a great job, that would be naivety in the extreme but we should not be so eager to slate them without witnessing events first hand.

But as I have already explained, I was there for Spread Eagle attack round two. The Cambridge mob were trying to get in the pub again, they were man handling the police, trying to push past them. The police should have arrested a few, even if it was to put them in vans, and let them out later after the Southend fans had made their way into the ground. Especially after what happened in round one. But by not apprehending anyone, it gave them the green light to up their attack.
So this is not hearsay, this is from a witness. The police normally do a good job. On this day they got the early trouble wrong.

 

[shrimpfan]

But as I have already explained, I was there for Spread Eagle attack round two. The Cambridge mob were trying to get in the pub again, they were man handling the police, trying to push past them. The police should have arrested a few, even if it was to put them in vans, and let them out later after the Southend fans had made their way into the ground. Especially after what happened in round one. But by not apprehending anyone, it gave them the green light to up their attack.
So this is not hearsay, this is from a witness. The police normally do a good job. On this day they got the early trouble wrong.

Seems like the later trouble wrong as well.

 

[Crowstone Crevette]

Thank you for the kind words 'WCRC'.

In fairness, I have never felt or said that I am anything other than appalled by what happened to him. I don't think anyone feels any different to that. I have said my piece on how awful the whole tragedy is on previous threads and on this thread, as well. Nothing will ever change my view on the fact that this is an appalling crime.

The thread, however, is about the verdicts and prison sentences handed down to the defendants and my concern, as outlined in my last post, is that if people are going to serve lengthy sentences for 'conspiracy' then the net is wider, on the day, than just those convicted.

In a Utopian society, I'd like the thugs who committed the assault to serve very lengthy sentences and anyone not involved to be considered as such. In a way, by staying collective as defendants, they each signed their own fate.

Where I sit uneasily is that if they are convicted for 'conspiracy' to cause general violence during the day, then others should have been, as well. If the convictions are for 'conspiracy' to attack Simon Dobbin in particular, then that's a different matter.

I don't like our club being dragged through this anymore than anyone else. If anything, by saying that other people indirectly contributed to this, I feel I am attempting to show that our club are not only intolerant of this behavior from those involved, but any behavior from others on a matchday, which drags us into this.

No-one has been convicted from Cambridge for 'conspiracy to commit violent disorder' yet without their behavior, none of this would have happened.

That doesn't condone any actions directly against Simon Dobbin. Those people should be convicted of the awful attack and serve appropriate sentences.

I was kind of with you Andy, until the penultimate paragraph. You can't know that "without their behaviour, none of this would have happened". Unfortunately we have our fair share of knuckle dragging numpties.

Your other point about others (presumably Cambridge 'fans') not being convicted for 'conspiracy'. Just because there was insufficient evidence or they weren't nicked at the time, or whatever reason doesn't stop the ones that have been convicted for conspiracy being guilty

 

[Ex-Member1]

But as I have already explained, I was there for Spread Eagle attack round two. The Cambridge mob were trying to get in the pub again, they were man handling the police, trying to push past them. The police should have arrested a few, even if it was to put them in vans, and let them out later after the Southend fans had made their way into the ground. Especially after what happened in round one. But by not apprehending anyone, it gave them the green light to up their attack.
So this is not hearsay, this is from a witness. The police normally do a good job. On this day they got the early trouble wrong.

Sorry I was under the apprehension that we were discussing the actual SD assault. I was not referencing any pof my comments on earlier incidents. You were there I wasn't. Seems like you think the assault can firmly be placed at the door of the Police for what you perceive as insufficient action.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I like reading your contributions to SZ, Andy. However, on this occasion (and during this thread), I just don't feel you have got it right. SD was brutally assaulted that evening. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies that.

Some posters have tried to blame the Cambridge thugs earlier in the day, some have tried to blame the police, some have tried to blame the jury. That is just a distraction from the real issue.

It is a great shame this thread did not turn into a way of Southend fans unanimously showing their anger at what happened to SD and offering sympathy to his family. That way, we might have been able to claw back some of the dignity and respect we, as a club and fans, have lost during this period.

That'll do. Now lock the thread.

 

[Hotman]

All I'm taking from this thread is that we've got a lot of posters here who:

1. Are easily led by the media, and/or
2. Believe that a conspiracy to commit an offence can occur literally seconds before an offence, and/or
3. Support the twisting of events and messages by the police in an effort to strengthen their prosecution case.

No-one is condoning the actual attack. They are questioning the greater prosecution case which has used one of a few conclusions from circumstantial evidence, lacked the acknowledgement of mitigating factors, and piggy backed previous convictions of those not directly responsible to strengthen the case against those who were.

I think there's plenty who'd be far far happier if the truly guilty put their hands up. Including some who are serving time now.