Tonight, I have finally given up on the gaffer.

[Jam_Man]

But weren't you (until the last couple of games at least - I've not really been coming onto JamManZone lately.) constantly going on about how Brown had to take responsibility for our poor form and for posters to stop giving him reasons (such as embargo's) to hide behind, and that he needed to improve. Surely this is you being concerned, and backs Silencer's point that before the turnaround in form, fans were worried. And we know they were, we witnissed post upon post of discontent on here about Brown and the teams inability to pick up wins and points. Just because you don't take the cup that has brought us the most success outside of the league seriously, doesn't mean that the one win in nine wasn't cause for concern at that time.

I don't understand why you can post a dozen times a day that Brown has to take responsibility for our poor form and telling other posters to stop giving him excuses (which is their opinion); but when Silencer bemoans the tactics that has led to the poor form you are telling all and sundry that Brown has to take responisbilty for, it's a knee jerk reaction. If anything, him waiting until long after your post upon post about it, is the opposite to knee jerk.

The fact is, that the JPT run last year has kept us afloat, in fact it seems it still is, in light of us having retained the ticket money for other expenses, not taking this competition seriously has cut off a potential source of much needed revenue for the club. That in itself is reason to be ****ed off, let alone the eight failed attempts to win in nine games. Not everyone needs to conform to your point of view.

Firstly and a big point you overlook, the reason I was asking people to hold the manager accountable was because when we were in poor form everyone was blaming embargos and wages and letting him off the hook. I even proved wages werent even unpaid.

Yes I was very critical after 6 games with only 2 points, until the form turned funnily enough at which point I accepted we had improved and havent criticised anything since the Oxford game as that looked like we had turned the corner.

What I didnt do was wait until we had gone 3 games unbeaten and beaten one of the top 3 away and then create a thread when our reserves lost.

Im all for asking for the manager to be held accountable, but Ill also give credit where its due, and it is now due.

The JTP game was a one off game where we didnt even put out our best team, to have silencer suggest I have an anti-Brown agenda for being unhappy about 2 points in 6 games and then create a thread after that one game was asburd.

 

[chapperzUK]

Yes I was very critical, until the form turned funnily enough.

What I didnt do was wait until we had gone 3 games unbeaten and beaten one of the top 3 away and then create a thread when our reserves lost.

Apart from Smith, Payne and Reid the side that played was pretty much our starting 11. Yet these still regularly make the bench with Payne coming on a fair amount.

It's wasn't a reserve side, just a terrible 10 minutes in a game that people didn't really care about. It wasn't losing the game that was the problem, it was the score.

 

[Jam_Man]

Apart from Smith, Payne and Reid the side that played was pretty much our starting 11. Yet these still regularly make the bench with Payne coming on a fair amount.

It's wasn't a reserve side, just a terrible 10 minutes in a game that people didn't really care about. It wasn't losing the game that was the problem, it was the score.

And Timlin.

7 players out of 11 isnt pretty much our first 11 and that team hasnt played since and wont again, by taking out the likes of Bentley, Leonard and Corr we ripped out the er core of the side.

As you also say even with that we had a bad 10 minutes and were matching them, yet we get a 6 page thread about giving up on the manager.

 

[chapperzUK]

And Timlin.

7 players out of 11 isnt pretty much our first 11 and that team hasnt played since and wont again, by taking out the likes of Bentley, Leonard and Corr we ripped out the er core of the side.

As you also say even with that we had a bad 10 minutes and were matching them, yet we get a 6 page thread about giving up on the manager.

The thread was started on emotion and frustration from my view. In fact, the thread only originally lasted 2 pages gaining 20 responses before it was bumped after we beat Fleetwood last Friday.

 

[superblue24]

The fact is, that the JPT run last year has kept us afloat, in fact it seems it still is, in light of us having retained the ticket money for other expenses, not taking this competition seriously has cut off a potential source of much needed revenue for the club. That in itself is reason to be ****ed off, let alone the eight failed attempts to win in nine games. Not everyone needs to conform to your point of view.

Not a fact. Are you seriously suggesting that without us having a JPT run last year and making the final, the club would have folded? Can you provide evidence to this? Sounds like senationalist nonsense to me.

If the money was so important to us, why did we field a largely second string side against Daggers? Surely we'd be wanting to really go for that competition by playing our best side?

Why did Sturrock also field largely second string teams at the same stage last season come to think of it? He also got sacked just before the final, so I can hardly imagine RM making it one of Sturrocks main concerns and objectives last year, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten the boot.

 

[Jam_Man]

The thread was started on emotion and frustration from my view. In fact, the thread only originally lasted 2 pages gaining 20 responses before it was bumped after we beat Fleetwood last Friday.

Indeed, and any thread started is open to debate, thats what the forum is here for.

 

[Silencer]

The thread was started on emotion and frustration from my view. In fact, the thread only originally lasted 2 pages gaining 20 responses before it was bumped after we beat Fleetwood last Friday.

True - but then you get the usual suspects trying to nit pick at people's every comments!!!

I could have told you beforehand a certain 2/3 who would 'gang up' and try to argue (not debate) for the sake of it.

What makes it laughable is how flawed some arguements are, ecspecially JamMans!!!!

I really can't see how anyone could suggest that the JPT is irrelevant, look what it did for us last season and in the past with the two LDV Millenium visits.

As for us playing a 'reserve' side, I doubt whether such a threadbare side can afford to carry reserves.

 

[Jam_Man]

True - but then you get the usual suspects trying to nit pick at people's every comments!!!

I could have told you beforehand a certain 2/3 who would 'gang up' and try to argue (not debate) for the sake of it.

What makes it laughable is how flawed some arguements are, ecspecially JamMans!!!!

Debate them then...

 

[Silencer]

Not a fact. Are you seriously suggesting that without us having a JPT run last year and making the final, the club would have folded? Can you provide evidence to this? Sounds like senationalist nonsense to me.

If the money was so important to us, why did we field a largely second string side against Daggers? Surely we'd be wanting to really go for that competition by playing our best side?

Why did Sturrock also field largely second string teams at the same stage last season come to think of it? He also got sacked just before the final, so I can hardly imagine RM making it one of Sturrocks main concerns and objectives last year, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten the boot.

Who exactly were the 'second string' players amongst the 'reserve' team that we fielded?

 

[Jam_Man]

Who exactly were the 'second string' players amongst the 'reserve' team that we fielded?

Timlin/Smith/Reid/Payne.

None of which can be considered first team starters, as they dont start for the first team.

The key thing is not just the change of 4 players but the change of the core of the side, Bentley/Leonard and Corr are a pretty strong core and to rip that out in one game was always a big risk.

All of those players can play in the first team but to make a massive change from a team in one go is never great for consistency.

 

[Blue_Wes]

Not a fact. Are you seriously suggesting that without us having a JPT run last year and making the final, the club would have folded? Can you provide evidence to this? Sounds like senationalist nonsense to me.

If the money was so important to us, why did we field a largely second string side against Daggers? Surely we'd be wanting to really go for that competition by playing our best side?

Why did Sturrock also field largely second string teams at the same stage last season come to think of it? He also got sacked just before the final, so I can hardly imagine RM making it one of Sturrocks main concerns and objectives last year, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten the boot.

We still owe the league the money (or at least part of) we collected from tickets last year. It's one of the reasons the club is currently under an embargo. The fact that we have chosen to use money belonging to the FL, the body that can impose footballing penalties such as points deductions, to pay another creditor, suggests we were very desperate, and the creditor was one that couldn't be ignored. It's doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if we are opting to **** off the FL, it was a pretty damn important bill to be paying. The fact we still owe the FL money seven months on, says we couldn't find the money elsewhere, otherwise the FL would have been paid back by now. Fine we may not have been wound up just yet, but we would be in a much worse financial situation than we are now, and considering we are in a **** poor finanacial situation with bills outstanding, players (albeit ex players) unpaid and an embargo in place, it's a fair assumption (and I admit assumption, but one based on facts) that we may not have been around if we hadn't witheld the FL's money to pay another creditor/s. Hardly sensationlist nonsense.

Your second point reinforces the my point, that fans have the right to be ****ed off at cutting off a potential source of revenue, all of which is vital to a club in our position.

Sturrock was sacked just before the final, because Martin felt that a new manager would have a better chance of winning it, as and I quote from Ron Martin himself, 'Sturrock's form was on the decline and he was starting to lose the dressing room, and I didn't believe he was able to turn it around.' He also confirmed he never intended for Sturrock to manage the side, and it was always his intention to let him lead the team out, and the press misconstrued the term lead. This is from when we met him in the services on the way home from York last season. Admittedly, he also told me we would definitely be on site and building Fossett's by September this year at the time as well.

 

[Jam_Man]

Sturrock was surely sacked to give Brown time to get us promoted, not to win the JPT.

Winning the JPT wasnt half as important as just getting there.

As for this season, getting to the final of the JPT is a massive financial boost, the rest of the tournament isnt. Weighing up the strain it puts on the small squad against chances of actually getting there I can certainly see why its such a low priority.

Still the FA Cup to get a windfall in (and in theory you only have to win 2 games to get one!)

 

[superblue24]

True - but then you get the usual suspects trying to nit pick at people's every comments!!!

Dude, you were the one coming here banging the drum after losing to Daggers and shouting the odds about a number of points. You were highly critical of Straker, and like it or not, there are a number of people on here who like Straker (not just Wiggy) who probably took exception to your pretty derrogatory comments.

I could have told you beforehand a certain 2/3 who would 'gang up' and try to argue (not debate) for the sake of it.

I know you're including me in this group, so where am I trying to argue for the "sake of it"? I saw your post, I disagreed with at least 85% of it and since the Daggers game you've been proven wrong on almost every part of your emotional post. Or would you rather that everyone just come on here and agree with every word you say? You certainly seem to take exception to people disagreeing with your comments.

What makes it laughable is how flawed some arguements are, ecspecially JamMans!!!!

Where are the flaws? Why are you just closing off the discussion by saying "everyone who disagrees with me have flawed arguments"? Let's hear the flaws.

I really can't see how anyone could suggest that the JPT is irrelevant, look what it did for us last season and in the past with the two LDV Millenium visits.

It was irelevant in so much as the consistency in team selection was broken for whatever reason. Whether PB didn't view the match as a "must win" game, or whether he felt he had enough in the likes of Timlin, Reid, Smith etc to win the game is something only he will know. The point is that the team had it's guts ripped out from the Oxford game and was not comparable in strength to the Dagenham game for that reason. What also made it a bit unique was the "mad" ten minutes in which Dagenham scored 4 goals....You must be able to admit that such a feat is a bit of a rarity? Again, it comes down to RM's expectations handed to PB at the start of the season. I can only assume that the JPT was not on RM's list of things to achieve.

As for us playing a 'reserve' side, I doubt whether such a threadbare side can afford to carry reserves.

What are you saying here? That we don't have players who could be considered as "reserve" because the squad is so small? Perhaps we don't have 11 players in reserve, but we do have 9 who don't make the starting 11 each week for whatever reason, 6 of those 9 wont have any game time, and 2/4 (not sure on total number of subs allowed in games) of those 6 wont even make the bench. So there are players looking to prove themselves, and in this case Timlin, Reid, Payne and Smith were afforded the opportunity to impress.

 

[superblue24]

We still owe the league the money (or at least part of) we collected from tickets last year. It's one of the reasons the club is currently under an embargo. The fact that we have chosen to use money belonging to the FL, the body that can impose footballing penalties such as points deductions, to pay another creditor, suggests we were very desperate, and the creditor was one that couldn't be ignored. It's doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if we are opting to **** off the FL, it was a pretty damn important bill to be paying. The fact we still owe the FL money seven months on, says we couldn't find the money elsewhere, otherwise the FL would have been paid back by now. Fine we may not have been wound up just yet, but we would be in a much worse financial situation than we are now, and considering we are in a **** poor finanacial situation with bills outstanding, players (albeit ex players) unpaid and an embargo in place, it's a fair assumption (and I admit assumption, but one based on facts) that we may not have been around if we hadn't witheld the FL's money to pay another creditor/s. Hardly sensationlist nonsense.

We know all of this. My point is that you stating that it is FACT that the club wouldn't exist if it were not for the JPT final. It's true to say it helped us financially, but some would also argue that Timlins season ending injury along with the general distraction of the Trophy cost us a possible play-off berth which would have been 2 games away from Wembley and then one game from League One with increased revenue on a weekly basis.....Surely worth more than a one-off JPT run?

Your second point reinforces the my point, that fans have the right to be ****ed off at cutting off a potential source of revenue, all of which is vital to a club in our position..

This is true, but not relevant to the thread for the most part. If it were that important, RM should have told PB to stick out as strong a side as possible and PB would have done so. If RM hasn't conveyed that message (which seems like he didn't), then it's almost certain that the JPT isn't on RM's wish list and that is a separate discussion to be brought before RM and not relevant to the managers tactics.

Sturrock was sacked just before the final, because Martin felt that a new manager would have a better chance of winning it, as and I quote from Ron Martin himself, 'Sturrock's form was on the decline and he was starting to lose the dressing room, and I didn't believe he was able to turn it around.' He also confirmed he never intended for Sturrock to manage the side, and it was always his intention to let him lead the team out, and the press misconstrued the term lead. This is from when we met him in the services on the way home from York last season. Admittedly, he also told me we would definitely be on site and building Fossett's by September this year at the time as well.

I am not able to comment on this since I was not there. Sounds like he was sacked with the intention of turning our league form around ahead of winning us the JPT reading between the lines, but that's just my opinion. I know that Ron's rambling statement on the website seemed to indicate words to the effect of "it was nice of Sturrock to get us to the final, but was never on my list of things to achieve....But the money is a welcome bonus"

 

[Blue_Wes]

I don't understand why people are giving someone such a hard time for bemoaning the tactics of a manager that was on a run of one win in eight, especially when one of the key instigaters was constantly posting that Brown had to take responisibilty for the sides poor form. At the time, he had every right to do so, the fact it was after a loss is irrelevant, or even more relevant, depends on your point of view.

The manager then changes the tactics and to a lesser extent the starting XI, as the poster suggested, and results are now in our favour. Then captain hindsight (being generic here before anyone gets defensive) and his buddies jump on an emotional post a couple of weeks later berating him for being so negative, despite the fact that Brown himself has recognised his tactics, and selection weren't working, and changed them for the better.

Silencer has even said since, he supports and applauds the changes that have been made, (he would, he called for them, and rightly so by current form), and will continue to support Brown, as manager of the team. Yet people are still banging on about his original 'negative' post.

 

[Jam_Man]

I don't understand why people are giving someone such a hard time for bemoaning the tactics of a manager that was on a run of one win in eight, especially when one of the key instigaters was constantly posting that Brown had to take responisibilty for the sides poor form. At the time, he had every right to do so, the fact it was after a loss is irrelevant, or even more relevant, depends on your point of view.

The manager then changes the tactics and to a lesser extent the starting XI, as the poster suggested, and results are now in our favour. Then captain hindsight (being generic here before anyone gets defensive) and his buddies jump on an emotional post a couple of weeks later berating him for being so negative, despite the fact that Brown himself has recognised his tactics, and selection weren't working, and changed them for the better.

Silencer has even said since, he supports and applauds the changes that have been made, (he would, he called for them, and rightly so by current form), and will continue to support Brown, as manager of the team. Yet people are still banging on about his original 'negative' post.

Because as I have already answered, the form was showing signs of turning before the Daggers game, not after, and we had just beaten one of the top 3 away and unbeaten in three at that point, plus the team we put out was a weakened side so showed we werent taking it seriously.

The changes had already been used at Oxford, so not sure how Silencer calling for them worked.

The reason I was happy to bring it up was because Silencer the week before accused me of having an anti-Brown agenda, which is totally untrue, and then he creates a thread himself....

 

[Silencer]

Timlin - one of our most influential players at the club

Smith - experienced Prem and Championship keeper

Reid - a dozen goals in league two last season

Payne - game changer who fans and management are raving over

Hmmmm.....not exactly a second string.

 

[Jam_Man]

Timlin - one of our most influential players at the club

Who isnt even making it into the team.

Smith - experienced Prem and Championship keeper

Who isnt making it into the team as Bentley is better.

Reid - a dozen goals in league two last season

None for us and has looked totally ineffective when he has played. Even behind loanees.

Payne - game changer who fans and management are raving over

Promising, yet still not starting games, certainly one for the future.

Hmmmm.....not exactly a second string.

Hmmn, as they arent first team starters they are all second string.

How many will be in tonights starting line up ?

Id say only one will even have a chance to appear from the bench.

 

[superblue24]

Timlin - one of our most influential players at the club

Smith - experienced Prem and Championship keeper

Reid - a dozen goals in league two last season

Payne - game changer who fans and management are raving over

Hmmmm.....not exactly a second string.

How many League first team starting appearances do they have between them?

 

[Silencer]

Dude, you were the one coming here banging the drum after losing to Daggers and shouting the odds about a number of points. You were highly critical of Straker, and like it or not, there are a number of people on here who like Straker (not just Wiggy) who probably took exception to your pretty derrogatory comments.



I know you're including me in this group, so where am I trying to argue for the "sake of it"? I saw your post, I disagreed with at least 85% of it and since the Daggers game you've been proven wrong on almost every part of your emotional post. Or would you rather that everyone just come on here and agree with every word you say? You certainly seem to take exception to people disagreeing with your comments.



Where are the flaws? Why are you just closing off the discussion by saying "everyone who disagrees with me have flawed arguments"? Let's hear the flaws.



It was irelevant in so much as the consistency in team selection was broken for whatever reason. Whether PB didn't view the match as a "must win" game, or whether he felt he had enough in the likes of Timlin, Reid, Smith etc to win the game is something only he will know. The point is that the team had it's guts ripped out from the Oxford game and was not comparable in strength to the Dagenham game for that reason. What also made it a bit unique was the "mad" ten minutes in which Dagenham scored 4 goals....You must be able to admit that such a feat is a bit of a rarity? Again, it comes down to RM's expectations handed to PB at the start of the season. I can only assume that the JPT was not on RM's list of things to achieve.



What are you saying here? That we don't have players who could be considered as "reserve" because the squad is so small? Perhaps we don't have 11 players in reserve, but we do have 9 who don't make the starting 11 each week for whatever reason, 6 of those 9 wont have any game time, and 2/4 (not sure on total number of subs allowed in games) of those 6 wont even make the bench. So there are players looking to prove themselves, and in this case Timlin, Reid, Payne and Smith were afforded the opportunity to impress.

Wow - you want to get a room or what :omg:. What is with the paranoia, who mentioned you. My opinions on you are not for this forum, I am just a little tired of you digging at my posts every single thread 'Dude'.


Back to the debate. So our nine non starting players are reserve players now!!! This includes Prosser, Eastwood, Timlin, the Mighty Straker (Sorry to offend the Straker fans) amongst others, pretty flawed arguement 'Dude'. We may have a few youngsters who you could class as reserve players (Auger, Nije, Pinnock etc) but not the players on the bench/injured/suspended.


Four changes does not rip the heart out of a team, not when you include the likes of Timlin, Payne etc Now you are (in my opinion) just clutching at straws with your flawed argument once again. And even if the spine of the team was altered, this should not mean that the team loses the ability to defend set pieces. They are professional footballers who work on the training ground 5 days a week.


Finally, do you really think "that there are a number of people on here who like Straker (not just Wiggy) who probably took exception to your pretty derogatory comments"...if so, get a grip. Your having a pop at me for taking exception to peoples comments yet that is exactly the same. Flawed again.