What the actual ****?!

[Firestorm]

Oh yes silly me.....All thing Conservative are bad and obviously JC and any of his Party would never do such a thing.

Ps try not to kill or permanently injure someone with unnecessary first aide.

Don't let diplomats do CPR !

 

[londonblue]

Yes I am aware of current advice as I have done 8 or 9 courses over the years. This tread is about teaching children first aid and telling them its ok to break ribs is bad advice. Its only in extreme cases that you even need to perform chest compressions. The human body does very well at trying to save its self

Even people who have been pulled from a fire, unconscious and not breathing can be resuscitated without having to resort to chest compressions. Last thing we need is some ones 14 year old daughter fainting at school and some heavy handed youth starts unnecessary CPR and cracking ribs and possibly damaging her heart. Saying its ok dad says this is the right way go.

By the way didn't your doctor friend tell you that they are notoriously bad at first aide.

No it's not. As I said that was a direct quote from the St. John's instructor on my last first aid course, which was backed up when I questioned it by a doctor friend of mine. With all due respect, apart from the St. John's instructor who obviously knows more than us, I can tell you now that my doctor friend won't take kindly to being told he's wrong by someone less qualified than him (yes, I know, he can be a bit arrogant, but let's face it, he's right).

If you happen to break a few ribs then so bit it. The person will still thank you for saving their life. As has already been metioned: a person that needs CPR is technically dead, so breaking a few ribs won't be an issue.

For clarity, it's not about making sure you break a few ribs, it's about not worrying if you do

 

[rigsby]

No it's not. If you happen to break a few ribs then so bit it. The person will still thank you for saving their life. You even said it yourself: that a person that needs CPR is technically dead, so breaking a few ribs won't be an issue.

For clarity, it's not about making sure you break a few ribs, it's about not worrying if you do.

For clarity, how many times have you used your rib breaking skills. Why wont you except that instructors encourage you to start chest compressions when you don't have too. Like I say in 99% of cases you don't need it.

I must have been doing it wrong for 30 yeas so must everyone in the Fire Brigade that I know. I don't want to resort to mrsblue style stats but it looks like unfortunately I will.

 

[londonblue]

For clarity, how many times have you used your rib breaking skills. Why wont you except that instructors encourage you to start chest compressions when you don't have too. Like I say in 99% of cases you don't need it.

I must have been doing it wrong for 30 yeas so must everyone in the Fire Brigade that I know. I don't want to resort to mrsblue style stats but it looks like unfortunately I will.

I have thankfully never had to give CPR. I'm not sure how that is relevant.

I assume you mean accept rather than except? Assuming I'm right, I wont accept that because I have never been told to do chest compressions for the hell of it. You only do them when you think it is necessary.

It doesn't mean you've been doing it wrong. For the most part we're both saying the same thing, the only difference is that I am saying you shouldn't worry about breaking a rib or two. I'm not saying you have to go out of your way to break them, just that if you do, don't worry about it, and carry on. It's better to break a rib or two (if it comes to that) rather run the risk of not getting enough oxygen to the brain. A person will survive a few broken ribs, they won't survive no oxygen getting to the brain, or at least not in a good way.

 

[Pubey]

Surely this debate just goes to show that we need more (and better) first aid training.

 

[MK Shrimper]

and filibustering is undemocratic and should be outlawed.

 

[londonblue]

Surely this debate just goes to show that we need more (and better) first aid training.

I don't disagree with you. The more people of all ages that know first aid the better.

 

[rigsby]

I have thankfully never had to give CPR. I'm not sure how that is relevant.

I assume you mean accept rather than except? Assuming I'm right, I wont accept that because I have never been told to do chest compressions for the hell of it. You only do them when you think it is necessary.

It doesn't mean you've been doing it wrong. For the most part we're both saying the same thing, the only difference is that I am saying you shouldn't worry about breaking a rib or two. I'm not saying you have to go out of your way to break them, just that if you do, don't worry about it, and carry on. It's better to break a rib or two (if it comes to that) rather run the risk of not getting enough oxygen to the brain. A person will survive a few broken ribs, they won't survive no oxygen getting to the brain, or at least not in a good way.

It is relevant. You have come on the zone to pass on your never been used incorrect advice and now your trying to back peddle. Your original post was completely different to the one above. Highlights the danger of 'Cascade Trainning'

 

[Firestorm]

Just to clarify, I think....

It is not relevant to the question "Why wont you except that instructors encourage you to start chest compressions when you don't have too"

However, as the post then goes on to say something which does accept relevance if the word "except" is replaced with "accept".

 

[londonblue]

It is relevant. You have come on the zone to pass on your never been used incorrect advice and now your trying to back peddle. Your original post was completely different to the one above. Highlights the danger of 'Cascade Trainning'

Incorrect? Are you saying that you know better than all the St. John's instructors I've ever had, and a doctor? I haven't backtracked at all, i've clarified what I was saying.

The fact that I haven't (thankfully) had to use this training doesn't mean a thing, other than that I have been lucky. I still attend refresher courses where the same advice is given, and technique is assessed.

 

[rigsby]

As this thread proves our useless politicians should be doing what they are paid for and discussing, not blocking, important issues such as this countries shockingly poor standard of first aide. In fact even our emergency services are trained to the cheapest tick box levels that legislation will allow.

You don't need to have a medical background, anyone can set themselves up as a first aide instructor. Even if they have absolutely no experience in first aide.

When I was a recruit on my initial first aide course with the London Fire Brigade I was sitting next to a former army medic. He warned me that the instructors advice on CPR was dangerous. Good advice that I never forgot, I was at his 30 year retirement do last Thursday.

As I gained more hands on experience you realise that many, not all, of these so called instructors have learnt it all from a book. I include people with grand sounding titles such as 'St John's senior first aide instructor'. And guess what just like any religious leader they hate anyone telling them any different to their chosen newly updated book.

For the record I have used CPR on around seven ? casualties, two of them off duty. On one occasion some self important society wanted me to receive an award but I declined because that is not my thing.

So far I have never had to break any ribs neither has my friend Pete (the army medic)

 

[londonblue]

As this thread proves our useless politicians should be doing what they are paid for and discussing, not blocking, important issues such as this countries shockingly poor standard of first aide. In fact even our emergency services are trained to the cheapest tick box levels that legislation will allow.

You don't need to have a medical background, anyone can set themselves up as a first aide instructor. Even if they have absolutely no experience in first aide.

When I was a recruit on my initial first aide course with the London Fire Brigade I was sitting next to a former army medic. He warned me that the instructors advice on CPR was dangerous. Good advice that I never forgot, I was at his 30 year retirement do last Thursday.

As I gained more hands on experience you realise that many, not all, of these so called instructors have learnt it all from a book. I include people with grand sounding titles such as 'St John's senior first aide instructor'. And guess what just like any religious leader they hate anyone telling them any different to their chosen newly updated book.

For the record I have used CPR on around seven ? casualties, two of them off duty. On one occasion some self important society wanted me to receive an award but I declined because that is not my thing.

So far I have never had to break any ribs neither has my friend Pete (the army medic)

And you probably never will. But, would you stop giving CPR if a rib or two broke?

More to the point, you probably have broken a rib it two without realising it:

Reuters

In a study of people admitted to Korean hospitals, close to one third of those resuscitated after having CPR ended up with at least one broken rib, while about four percent had a broken breast bone, or sternum.

Dr. Michael Sayre, a spokesperson for the American Heart Association and a professor at the University of Washington in Seattle, said broken ribs are to be expected when doing CPR and the worry of causing a break shouldn't deter people from helping someone in cardiac arrest.


"I've talked to survivors and I never had anyone tell me, ‘Gosh, I wish no one had done this because my chest hurts,'" said Sayre, who was not involved in the new research.

And this from a male nurse's blog:

Now let me tell you this. I am a big guy. I weigh over 100kg and I can easily bench-press 70kgs (the weight of an average human). If your heart stops beating and you arrest, you want me on your team. I have a reputation on my ward for doing it well, and young interns never fail to comment as they monitor the patient whose chest I am pounding. "MMmmm good output Rick" they croon (No joke). The thing is though, it is ugly; really ugly. Chances are I will break one, two, even three of your ribs depending on how old you are. You will also have tube stuck down your throat to support your airway and help you breath, and be stabbed from several sides as doctors try to access your veins. Drugs like adrenaline, atropine and amiodarone will be pumped into your body with no hesitation.With the loss of consciousness and all the physical man-handling, you are likely to wet yourself and/or open your bowels. You will be stripped bare, and most likely you will be alone, without your friends or family. The average survival to discharge rate of someone surviving CPR (that is you get to go home) sits at around 18%

 

[Napster]

Phillip Davies is well known for his filibustering. I'm a conservative and even I think hes a dick.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Surely this debate just goes to show that we need more (and better) first aid training.

This thread is a self fullfilling prophecy on many levels.

 

[Beefy]

Phillip Davies is well known for his filibustering. I'm a conservative and even I think hes a dick.

It shouldn't need to be a Labour vs Conservative thing. This activity is just outrageous and it is good that it is coming into the public awareness now.

 

[rigsby]

A Doctor or Nurse in a hospital environment or a Paramedic with the correct equipment. Will know exactly when a person has had a cardiac arrest. That's when they can risk doing damage as it is an ACCEPTABLE risk.

You the first aider who has been told 'don't bother with a pulse you won't find one' will not be able to tell whether the heart is still working. It is so rare that a child dies of a heart condition it often makes national news. So like I say for the average first aider especially if they are dealing with children even when they have collapse or even pulled from a smoke filled building and not breathing you do not have to start chest compressions never mind breaking ribs.

If you can't see, or refuse to see the difference I suggest you refrain from ever attempting first aid.

Ps as for Mr big tuff I can bench press 70 kgs nurse. I way less than him but can press 120kgs :winking:

 

[londonblue]

A Doctor or Nurse in a hospital environment or a Paramedic with the correct equipment. Will know exactly when a person has had a cardiac arrest. That's when they can risk doing damage as it is an ACCEPTABLE risk.

You the first aider who has been told 'don't bother with a pulse you won't find one' will not be able to tell whether the heart is still working. It is so rare that a child dies of a heart condition it often makes national news. So like I say for the average first aider especially if they are dealing with children even when they have collapse or even pulled from a smoke filled building and not breathing you do not have to start chest compressions never mind breaking ribs.

If you can't see, or refuse to see the difference I suggest you refrain from ever attempting first aid.

Ps as for Mr big tuff I can bench press 70 kgs nurse. I way less than him but can press 120kgs :winking:

I worry that you are prepared to take the advice of one person over the all others just because he was a medic in the army. (I also think you need to re-read both the articles I quoted as you seem to have completely misunderstood them.) If you simply aren't prepared to accept that you probably have, and/or probably will break ribs in the process of giving CPR then I suggest you refrain from ever attempting first aid.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Some more bad news for the Tories.



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk

 

[Pubey]

Some more bad news for the Tories.



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk

Grant Shapps/Michael Green is a complete bellend and should have been booted out of the party when he lied about his second job, and then threatened to sue a constituent who uncovered his lie. Him leaving is probably a good thing for the Tories.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Grant Shapps/Michael Green is a complete bellend and should have been booted out of the party when he lied about his second job, and then threatened to sue a constituent who uncovered his lie. Him leaving is probably a good thing for the Tories.

Amazingly,he was still in the Tory cabinet until his resigination.