Osborne to cut benefits

[MK Shrimper]

Ok but for a fledgling business, if there is no short term profit, there is no long term.

I'm no business man, but I've seen on Dragons Den companies reporting to make a loss in the first few years to go onto making a healthy profits in later years.

 

[steveo]

I'm no business man, but I've seen on Dragons Den companies reporting to make a loss in the first few years to go onto making a healthy profits in later years.

Which is great as long as they have suitable backing and a Bank that takes a view that one day they will make money.
Most Banks these days **** themselves at the first sign they might not get paid back and pull the plug in a damage limitation situation.

Hows the new job?

 

[Napster]

Companies don't have to make profit immediately. They they have to have good cash flow to start with.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The nub of the matter is that we are fortunate to have choices here. Who is so lofty as to be able to judge another for where they are in life? The work I do is only possible because of taxpayers' money and because vulnerable people are deemed to need assistance from the gatekeepers of the public purse like me. It could be taken away in an instant and it may well be very soon. I suspect that it's going to be a very difficult time ahead for people dependent on services from Social Care.

Not me.I was very careful in the wording of what I said.

 

[osymandus]

But these are all established Companies. Im talking about start up firms and small firms who HAVE to make profit or they will never reach this stage

These are established companies , WHO will decide the fate of the smaller start up's as some are direct suppliers . The point i was making on that though was its a larger issue , teh idea of start ups is great , but as Ive questioned before what purpose does the business serve , the profits are important to sustain the "creature" but why was in created in the first place . If we want to transpose it to a natural model , can it find it's niche and survive . As any creature grow's in consumes more . What is more destructive or beneficial to its "environment".

I believe its the ideology behind why the businesses are founded , teh how is repeated in its current form many times , why are small buisness in need of so many loans to start (isnt this teh same argumenet of you cant afford your house you shouldn't buy on ?), why are teh values of products and services such that loans are required , and like many over things squeezed to get as much profit as possible ? (which as we see causes it to rise year in year out ).

 

[osymandus]

Companies don't have to make profit immediately. They they have to have good cash flow to start with.

Exactly , and build their nest or deposit to sustain themselevs for growth . Yet like any living creature over eating is as bad as not enough.

 

[londonblue]

Osborne is targeting people who is fit to work, but pretending to be disabled and on Incapacity benefits. I know 3 guys who is pretending he got back back, knee and cannot use their arm etc and can't work, yet, they are fit and be able to do sports etc - I know a guy who is on Incapacity benefits, he pretending he cannot walk or bend down to lift something etc, but he was fit to play football, can head, tackle and shoot etc - I already reported him to The Suns, with video clips of him playing football and bit of his details, now he expect someone come knocking on his door, to check him out soon :) so at least one of our tax money is saved from paying him!!

So what have you done about it? Have you shopped them? I think we all have a part to play in reducing fraud.

 

[londonblue]

This whole thing is very complicated.

We've already touched on a number of issues, so apologies if I go over old ground. I couldn't be arsed to read the whole thread!

To my mind, targetting benefit fraud/cheats and forcing people back to work is a quick way of gaining political browny points with the vast majority of the public. I doubt anyone on here would argue against that, unless you're a cheat yourself! However, governments have been trying to do that since I can remember, and still we have fraud, and people claiming benefits that really shouldn't. The simple fact is, you will never completely eradicate overspend like this, and everyone living in the real world knows it.

The interesting fact is that benefit fraud actually accounts for 1% of all claims. How long will it take to find these people? Add to that, how long will it take to go through the other 99% and decide which should be working and which shouldn't? It will take a lot of time and resources, at a time when the government wants to cut public sector pay and jobs!

Does that mean we shouldn't do anything about it, and just give up? Of course it doesn't. I'm no different to anyone else: I don't like my taxes being wasted on cheats and fraudsters, but I also accept that that any attempt at reducing this waste needs to be cost effective. If it costs more to police the system than we save then even more of my taxes are being wasted, which would make me even more angry!

I noticed also that someone came up with about 500 vacancies in the Southend area alone that need filling. Personally I would rather be in work than not, regardless of the job (to a certain extent!) so yes people should be made to take these jobs. But (and here is where I open up a huge can or worms) these jobs are always available. People simply don't want them. So what are we supposed to do in the short term? I know, let's close our borders and not fill these vacancies with people that are willing to work for next to nothing in dead end jobs, and in the mean time, allow our hospitals, offices etc continue to be dirty and unpleasant places to work in.

 

[Winkle]

shame on anyone for suggesting otherwise.

Sorry for being to the point but in all honesty, I do not feel any shame whatsoever in suggesting that benefits should be scaled back and stopped for those who think that it is a way of life.......because for many it is. I dont see many unwashed children at the school gates in the morning, T.B.H I dont see any malnourished either, infact a lot of the mothers on benefits that I now of, manage to perfectly adapt there life between smoking 40 fags a day, driving cars I could never afford and popping down the offie for a bottle of wine everynight. I would not however suggest that this is the norm, because it is not, but I cannot beleive that living long term on benefits is going to benefit you or me as a tax payer. lets give these people a choice"Work or starve" its quite easy when you cut through all the self centred moralistic crap. Lets look after the people who have worked all there life and the people with disabilites and those unfortunate people struck down with terrible diseases. lets buy the drugs that make a difference to those facing terminal illnesses, why should those who have paid in go without? Whats fair about that!

 

[osymandus]

Sorry for being to the point but in all honesty, I do not feel any shame whatsoever in suggesting that benefits should be scaled back and stopped for those who think that it is a way of life.......because for many it is. I dont see many unwashed children at the school gates in the morning, T.B.H I dont see any malnourished either, infact a lot of the mothers on benefits that I now of, manage to perfectly adapt there life between smoking 40 fags a day, driving cars I could never afford and popping down the offie for a bottle of wine everynight. I would not however suggest that this is the norm, because it is not, but I cannot beleive that living long term on benefits is going to benefit you or me as a tax payer. lets give these people a choice"Work or starve" its quite easy when you cut through all the self centred moralistic crap. Lets look after the people who have worked all there life and the people with disabilites and those unfortunate people struck down with terrible diseases. lets buy the drugs that make a difference to those facing terminal illnesses, why should those who have paid in go without? Whats fair about that!

Well for starters life isnt fair and just becuase you worked your whole life dosnt mean to say you getter better treatment . Sorry but fairness if it dosnt exisit one one side dosnt exisit on teh other .

What i assume you mean is people working together in a community with a sense of common goal and working to make sure their themselfs are respected and their elders . Of most of was disposed of in the 80's onwards with destruction of communities spirit and moving elderly peope out of teh way to make way for a cult of youth and speed and efficiency .

Marginalized "lower" classes are often blamed for all societies ill's, and can get together and form mafia's which then drives up crime rates.

Your worries have been repeated time and again as has your suggested solution implemented and progressively failed since the industrial age.

 

[Winkle]

Well for starters life isnt fair and just becuase you worked your whole life dosnt mean to say you getter better treatment . Sorry but fairness if it dosnt exisit one one side dosnt exisit on teh other .

What i assume you mean is people working together in a community with a sense of common goal and working to make sure their themselfs are respected and their elders . Of most of was disposed of in the 80's onwards with destruction of communities spirit and moving elderly peope out of teh way to make way for a cult of youth and speed and efficiency .

Marginalized "lower" classes are often blamed for all societies ill's, and can get together and form mafia's which then drives up crime rates.

Your worries have been repeated time and again as has your suggested solution implemented and progressively failed since the industrial age.

What on earth are you talking about ???? Fecking lost me!

 

[osymandus]

Just pointing out the flaw's in your arguments . And as we have been discussed its a bit of political points scoring by anyone who in power would say yes that's what we need to do !

Its daft what you suggest . In basic terms the element you suppose are teh trouble makers who who need to beremoved are so small as to really not affect the whole of society . The nonsenses going on in France about the Rom , is a clear example (similar to your line of thinking) that a small generalised minority are the problem with all our ills and need to be got rid , in a generalised non specific manner .

As LB as siad this situation is far too complex, and needs to be looked at by everyone is a rational way . Not an emotive one.

 

[Moridin]

Agree to an extent with both sides of the argument about tackling fraud in a Benefit sense. It is a tiny proportion of claimants that are being naughty, and there will be a tipping point when it's uneconomical to chase fraudsters, when it's costs more to police than the forecasted savings.

In my work there is a level of Council tenants Rent arrears that are not chased as a matter of policy, as it's not economical to waste the work time when compared to the income that will be generated. I assume this will be the case with Benefit fraud as well.

In my view the major problem is the total lack of punishment that is merited out to claimants that are caught. There is a general feeling that they are practically untouchable in any meaningful sense.

I have the pleasure of 'working' with a Council tenant who has claimed over £15,000 of Housing Benefit they are not entitled to. What was her punishment? She is currently claiming JSA, so gets her rent paid in full by the same Housing Benefit she has defrauded, minus £12.80 per week. Not a bad interest free loan....... She still doesn't even pay that!

So off we go to Court, requesting outright possession as 30 odd weeks of unpaid £12.80 are owed, and what does the judge do? Lets her stay in the house as long as she pays the £12.80 rent and an extra £3.30 to make up the missed payments, the poor love. How will she cope?

Perhaps if there was a little bit of a deterrent from ripping off the State....... **** me, I'm beginning to sound like a bloody Tory! :D

 

[osymandus]

Agree to an extent with both sides of the argument about tackling fraud in a Benefit sense. It is a tiny proportion of claimants that are being naughty, and there will be a tipping point when it's uneconomical to chase fraudsters, when it's costs more to police than the forecasted savings.

In my work there is a level of Council tenants Rent arrears that are not chased as a matter of policy, as it's not economical to waste the work time when compared to the income that will be generated. I assume this will be the case with Benefit fraud as well.

In my view the major problem is the total lack of punishment that is merited out to claimants that are caught. There is a general feeling that they are practically untouchable in any meaningful sense.

I have the pleasure of 'working' with a Council tenant who has claimed over £15,000 of Housing Benefit they are not entitled to. What was her punishment? She is currently claiming JSA, so gets her rent paid in full by the same Housing Benefit she has defrauded, minus £12.80 per week. Not a bad interest free loan....... She still doesn't even pay that!

So off we go to Court, requesting outright possession as 30 odd weeks of unpaid £12.80 are owed, and what does the judge do? Lets her stay in the house as long as she pays the £12.80 rent and an extra £3.30 to make up the missed payments, the poor love. How will she cope?

Perhaps if there was a little bit of a deterrent from ripping off the State....... **** me, I'm beginning to sound like a bloody Tory! :D

Lol was just thinking that . Well the CC judges do have to way up the benifits of making her homeless. But i do agree that a different layer of punishments needs to be looked into (fining people with no money is a bit daft lets be honest ), also intenet of why the person was defrauding (accumulating wealth or surviving )

 

[Moridin]

Lol was just thinking that . Well the CC judges do have to way up the benifits of making her homeless. But i do agree that a different layer of punishments needs to be looked into (fining people with no money is a bit daft lets be honest ), also intenet of why the person was defrauding (accumulating wealth or surviving )

First point is very true, she would only end up back on the waiting list anyway. But maybe that house becoming available might help a family in desperate need who have been waiting for years, and have some morals.

I really just don't like losing in Court! :thumbdown: And the freeking Legal Aid Solicitor represented her....

Fining is a bit pointless I agree, but after stealing £15k, she is still getting a £300+ a week income from the state with next to no consequences.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Just pointing out the flaw's in your arguments .

Well I'm sure we're all incredibly grateful to have you as the arbiter of truth and justice for the board.

 

[osymandus]

Well I'm sure we're all incredibly grateful to have you as the arbiter of truth and justice for the board.

Ah and your contributing in your usual way

 

[steveo]

What on earth are you talking about ???? Fecking lost me!

You are not alone Winkle.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Ah and your contributing in your usual way

'You're contributing' - I think that's what you mean. Just pointing out the 'flaw's' (sic) in your tortuous prose.

I'm here to help.

 

[steveo]

'You're contributing' - I think that's what you mean. Just pointing out the 'flaw's' (sic) in your tortuous prose.

I'm here to help.

And i thought you were the bloke with the poor grasp of the English language Rusty.