G20 protestor died of Abdominal Bleeding ....

[MK Shrimper]

A pity those oh so peaceful protesters didn't abide by those same principles.

4 people were arrested I believe which tells me that the vast, vast majority of the protests and the speeches (that the media didn't even bother showing) were peaceful.

 

[chadded]

The police, if you comply with them or not, have no right to knock you to the floor.

You are wrong. Yes they do. Hence the reason they are trained in arrest and restraint techniques, which include putting people on the floor, and are also equipped with such tools as batons. Putting someone on the floor gives the officer control, which is what they need to have to do their job.

 

[Benfleet A1]

4 people were arrested I believe which tells me that the vast, vast majority of the protests and the speeches (that the media didn't even bother showing) were peaceful.

And if you truly believe that then I'm very happy for you.

 

[MK Shrimper]

And if you truly believe that then I'm very happy for you.

Well the facts don't lie GHG. If it was mass riots and all out violence the arrest figures would of been a lot higher, no?

Edit: 86 arrests...Two people were arrested for having offensive weapons, two for aggravated burglary at a Royal Bank of Scotland branch and one for arson at the same branch. Other suspected offenses included assault on police, theft and drug possession.

Out of what, 200,000 protesters?

 

[MK Shrimper]

You are wrong. Yes they do. Hence the reason they are trained in arrest and restraint techniques, which include putting people on the floor, and are also equipped with such tools as batons. Putting someone on the floor gives the officer control, which is what they need to have to do their job.

Agreed, if the person is seen as a threat to themselves or anyone else. Tomlinson was none of these.

 

[chadded]

4 people were arrested I believe which tells me that the vast, vast majority of the protests and the speeches (that the media didn't even bother showing) were peaceful.

By arresting someone, you're taking an officer off the ground. With such large numbers of protesters, arresting hundreds and thus taking so many officers off the ground is impractical, dangerous, and downright stupid. Hence the emergence in recent years of police evidence gatherers with cameras. The priority for the police would almost certainly be to retain control on the ground at the present time.

For a textbook example, look at football matches. I can't provide figures, but when there has been major disorder at football mataches, often the culprits are arrested after the event.

 

[chadded]

Agreed, if the person is seen as a threat to themselves or anyone else. Tomlinson was none of these.

Again- Hindsight. But he was obstucting a Police Officer. I can't think of the act in law which makes that an offence. (FWIW, its Sec35 of the Army Act, 1955 for military personnel) So he was arrestable, and all he got was a push. If someone gave me the option of a push, or being arrested I know which one I'd take, but I wouldn't make myself arrestable in the first place.

 

[MK Shrimper]

By arresting someone, you're taking an officer off the ground. With such large numbers of protesters, arresting hundreds and thus taking so many officers off the ground is impractical, dangerous, and downright stupid. Hence the emergence in recent years of police evidence gatherers with cameras. The priority for the police would almost certainly be to retain control on the ground at the present time.

For a textbook example, look at football matches. I can't provide figures, but when there has been major disorder at football mataches, often the culprits are arrested after the event.

Plenty of protesters have come forward to say that the image that the media portrayed was a false one and that the vast majority of the protests were peaceful, but Sky, BBC et al aren't interested in a few dancing hippies or speeches by people like Tony Benn, they just want the small outbreaks of violence by idiots - that shot where the morons are smashing the windows in at the RBS bank there are more journalists and cameras than protesters or police. And this gives the general view to the Great British public that it was all out carnage, was simply not the case.

 

[chadded]

Plenty of protesters have come forward to say that the image that the media portrayed was a false one and that the vast majority of the protests were peaceful.

Strange that...... ;)

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

The confict resolution model is a model showing the options of force available. Its all to do with reasonable force, ie using the appropriate tactic without going too extreme, ie if someone spat at you, you can't just go in and shoot them. Tomlinson is walking in front of the police very slowly, and I'd put good moeny on them telling him to move out of the way, which he isnt really doing so. What should the coppers do? Excuse me old chap, we've kept asking you to move and you're not, please, my friend, pretty please, or i'll tell my mummy. Come on, he got pushed. Like I say, if you don't comply with the police, what do you really expect. Them to walk around him? Then he pulls a knife and stabs them all in the back? You might think its far fetched, but its the principle of all round defence, hence the reason they (the police) advance and retreat in lines, so that they have mutual support.

'He wasn't involved in the protests'' -hindsights amazing isn't it.

Sorry Biffa, but by your own arguement here you're talking rubbish. Basically what you're saying is that it's all to do with using reasonable and appropriate force in any given situation.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that after talking to an uncooperative person the first option available to an officer is to shove them so hard that they fall over and bounce off the floor, then just to make sure take a swing at them with the batton. Again, just to repeat the point about reasonable force, it has been shown from the videos that the officer took a full, head height, backswing when he hit Tomlinson's legs.

In hindsight Tomlinson wasn't a threat, he was ****ed. Agreed, hindsight is wonderfull. But by your own conflict model the force used by the officer was neither appropriate or reasonable. For that reason he should be prosecuted in the same way any member of the public would be.

 

[chadded]

Strange, seeing as Tomlinson was pushed in the video I saw, not struck by a baton. Tomlinsons a big lad. I'd like to watch it a few times, but theres a good chance he fell over not by the force of the push, but because he was ****ed when he was pushed.

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

Strange, seeing as Tomlinson was pushed in the video I saw, not struck by a baton. Tomlinsons a big lad. I'd like to watch it a few times, but theres a good chance he fell over not by the force of the push, but because he was ****ed when he was pushed.

There's a link a couple earlier in this thread to a (long) wikipedia page, details everything. Basically, after reading that, there is no way anyone could say the force used was reasonable.

 

[J]

Sorry make that 304 times now !!

304, ****. That would do his abdomen in for sure. Imagnie having to act that same scene 304 times. Bollox.

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

Hopefully I've called this one wrongly and something may be done after all. With any luck the inadequate little thug will be sent down for a lengthy stretch, where I'm sure that the other inmates will make the "officer" feel very, very welcome.

If that is the case then it should have a pretty profound effect on police tactics in the future. It's precisely because of the absence of consequences in 99% of cases that they like to take the opportunity to show what real men they are by assaulting unarmed people with weapons and giving backhanders to women.

 

[Lord Football]

Coppers are there to enforece the law, not to break it.

I was quite interested to read the accounts from protestors regarding the Police covering their numbers so they could not be identified. So I ask the question, why would a copper going about his duties feel the need not to be identified by his number? I'd suggest it was because those who cover their numbers do so because they went out with the intent to spank some heads and have no comeback.

There was quite a hilarious You Tube video referred to where the Policeman, when asked for his number would only replay Bishopsgate Police Station.

I think a full enquiry is needed, not only regarding the death but how the police handled what was, in the main, a very peaceful protest.

 

[Lord Football]

Strange, seeing as Tomlinson was pushed in the video I saw, not struck by a baton. Tomlinsons a big lad. I'd like to watch it a few times, but theres a good chance he fell over not by the force of the push, but because he was ****ed when he was pushed.

straws..... clutching at

 

[steveo]

Ian Tomlinson had his back to the police and was walking away if somewhat slowly. He wasn't even involved in any protests.

But he had previously been involved with them to the extent of standing in front of a Police vehicle and not letting it pass. This was at 6.07. So if he wasnt involved in the Protest and was on his way to his hostel, why did it take so long to get there? Perhaps he was so drunk he couldnt remember the way home.

 

[londonblue]

The confict resolution model is a model showing the options of force available. Its all to do with reasonable force, ie using the appropriate tactic without going too extreme, ie if someone spat at you, you can't just go in and shoot them. Tomlinson is walking in front of the police very slowly, and I'd put good moeny on them telling him to move out of the way, which he isnt really doing so. What should the coppers do? Excuse me old chap, we've kept asking you to move and you're not, please, my friend, pretty please, or i'll tell my mummy. Come on, he got pushed. Like I say, if you don't comply with the police, what do you really expect. Them to walk around him? Then he pulls a knife and stabs them all in the back? You might think its far fetched, but its the principle of all round defence, hence the reason they (the police) advance and retreat in lines, so that they have mutual support.

'He wasn't involved in the protests'' -hindsights amazing isn't it.

The problem with this argument for me is that it is based on an assumption. You're assuming the Police had already spoken to this guy. You don't know that. It may well turn out to be true, but you don't know for sure...

Which comes back to something I have already said. From that clip it is impossible to know what went on leading up to this incident. Until the full facts are known no-one can really say if the Police were justified or not.

 

[Pubey]

IMO people have missed the most bizarre part of this.. how can the first post-mortem (agreed by two highly trained pathologists) have the cause of death as a heart attack, but then the second post-mortem (agreed by two highly trained pathologists) have a completely different cause of death. I'm not shouting conspiracy or anything, but someone (likely to be the 1st post-mortem) cocked up!

Was Ian Tomlinson obstructing the police at the time that video was taken?... was he ****! he was ****ed, walking away slowly and the police officer was neither arresting or restraining the guy (we know this much for sure as he was left to stagger off a bit further before dying). Ian Tomlinson might not have been cooperative (from the video we can see), but he wasn't a threat to anyone and even if he wasn't complying with police orders, i can't see how the assault can be at all justified.

 

[duncan bulgaria]

My take is that i saw the last protest kick off in 99 as reported in a previous thread and the Police doen a sterling job , they were vastly outnumbered , took a bit of a hiding but stood firm to protect innocent people from getting hurt .

Now i have never been a massive fan of the old bill but my estimations of them went uop that day big time , i was in the middle of it and it was a little scary at one point .

so we come to the antics of 2 weeks ago , which once again i walked out to have a look at what was going on , the provication some of the coppers were recieving was bang out of order and nearly all reasonable minded folks around me were in agreence when the police used force to push back the protestors .

Yes there were scuffles but i thought theyu handle the situation very well , the word was days before that it was going to be naughty , the police stood firm again and unless in that situation i don't feel anyone really has a clue about what goes thriough your mind . Yes the Tomlinson push was OTT but from what i saw that day the old bill took a lot more cheap shots than that and got on with things . IMO it was unfortunate ending that could of been recitifed by IT himself not entering the ' Danger Zone ' as usch and listening to the orders given by the police to move on minutes earlier .


Its nothing more than what you will see in most towns outside nightclubs at closing time , Police having to deal with disorder and they do normally use force to get their point across , right or wrong , i have learnt to distance yourself from these situations as i have the scars , bruises to prove it when i was a young lad with too much lip at times .

No i obvuiosly didn't get killed but i got lippy , took a hiding off the police , got gassed and had to live with the scars for a couple of weeks , a 100 hours community service order , yes the police were a little over forcefull with 6 of them on me but like i said the situation need not of happened if my actions would of been to listen and move on . Tradgic story but one that was not intended by the officer .

You only have to look at the outrage some supporters felt when it went off on Saturday and believe me G20 trouble was a lot worse , a lot worse .

I think we are entering a stage in life when thepolice will be afraid to arrest someone in fear of hurting / killing them . You can't win sometimes !!