Attention of Mts

[rabbloke]

I have posed this question to Mts as he appears to be the resident legal eagle but if anyone else can shed light then please do. What rights do footballers and fans really have? Following the scenes at Grimsby and Bury we are led to believe that the powers that be will review the matter and take whatever action is necessary (none most probably). Then what is the point in the rules and what good is the governing body? At what stage will individuals take on the FA (appropriate initials)? Surely members of the public could take out personal suits against the offending clubs for endangering personal safety etc or even injuries sustained with what was obviously inadequate and negligent policing and stewarding? Also, as we have paid cash to see a particular event, which is structured by the rules we expect to see, why cant we sue for obvious breaches ie. Early finishing of games. I know if I went to see a film at the cinema and they cut out the last minute I would be seething and expect my money back at least. Officials are not appointed by the clubs and so their ineptitude has to be the responsibility of the FA. It was stated that at the Bury game the referee almost abandoned the match. Why did'nt he? The outcome was compromised and the players and crowd were endangered. Is a promotion gained dependant on how much bottle the ref has? I have no desire to drag football into the American 'sue it if it moves' culture but something needs to be done to demonstrate to the authorities that we are in the 21st century. I have watched football for decades and have long been dismayed at the apparent attitude of the FA. They do what they like and beggar football or justice. A player can be sent off for inciting the crowd but not a ref? Where do we stand legally please? I would be grateful for your words of wisdom.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Crumbs... ask me again at the weekend...

Seriously, Grimsby would argue that there was a force majeure - rather like an Act of God - and that the invasion of the fans was something that they neither could have predicted, nor done anything about.

Other than that rather brief and simplistic answer, I'll think about this more over the weekend...

Matt

 

[The Artful Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ May 11 2005,09:02)]Seriously, Grimsby would argue that there was a force majeure - rather like an Act of God - and that the invasion of the fans was something that they neither could have predicted, nor done anything about.

The fact that fans at the last game all want to invade the piotch didn't warn them then?
Surly the ref should have removed the playeers to the dressing room then bought them back out when the pitch was cleared?
When our fan clumped the linesman earlier this season the game was soon stopped until it was all cleared up.

 

[Napster]

I addressed this very issue on Essex FM last night

 

[Leeboy]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ May 11 2005,09:30)]I addressed this very issue on Essex FM last night

Jeesuz..............

 

[Napster]

Quote[/b] (Leeboy @ May 11 2005,09:33)]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ May 11 2005,09:30)]I addressed this very issue on Essex FM last night

Jeesuz..............

well, it was good to promote SZ again!!!

 

[Leeboy]

let you off then

 

[fbm]

FWIW, I think that the FA need to take extreme measures against clubs that have fans that invade the pitch in order to try and affect the outcome of a game.  Fortunately it doesn't happen often - and I'm not just saying this because we've been involved (personally I don't think we'd have scored anyway) - but games MUST be allowed to be played out without players having the fear of encroachment by fans or the ref being intimidated.

Points deductions for the clubs involved and/or a replay are the only answer really.  Now ironically, if something like that were in place, that wouldn't have helped us directly last weekend as Grimsby would have had the deduction.  But I understand there were also invasions at Gigg Lane by the Swansea fans and so they would have had the deduction, thereby meaning we took 3rd place.  Of course, if the Swansea fans had stayed in their seats then there would be no deduction, and they would have gone up.  It's very difficult to call, because you can't say that we weren't promoted just because the game finished 3 or 4 minutes early.  But when we get exciting finishes to the season (which is fantastic entertainment for everyone else) it is these final games that are absolutely crucial and the FA cannot allow the outcomes to be disrupted by this sort of incident.  

Flip side - if we had been winning would some of our more moronic fans have decided to invade the pitch?  I would like to think not, but you can never know.  If they had, how would we feel? Would we be saying that the game must be replayed as we didn't win fairly?  Just take a few moments to actually pretend that that had happened; we had staged a pitch invasion (similar to Swansea) and had won the game.  Would we be listening to the Swans protests with sympathy or would we be saying "Hard luck mate, you should have won more points in the regular season"?

Once you have objectively and realistically imagined this sort of scenario, then that gives us a clue as to the enormity of the FA's task in trying to be fair.

Despite my views I still think this is the greatest game in the world.  A large part of me says leave the game alone; it is the controversies and incidents like this that provide the talking points and discussions that rage on for ever and a day.  The game is not perfect and it should not be made so.  What goes around comes around (eventually) and certainly if we had beaten Orient and Oxford we would have been promoted regardless.  But a dangerous precedent is being set by allowing fans to invade the pitch and get a game finished early without punishment.  It almost gives it a green light and who's to say that it wouldn't happen again in the play offs?  Or a cup final?  All the stewards in the world would be powerless if 5000 fans decided to run on the pitch 5 minutes from the end of the FA Cup final, wouldn't they?

The trouble is, we're not high profile enough.  If it happened at Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge, you can bet your life something would happen.

 

[rabbloke]

Fbm you are right. It is the greatest game in the world. If point deductions were made then agent provcateurs from other clubs may use this to get points ripped from innocent clubs in favour of their own. I do however believe that in the interests of fair play and player and public safety then replays should be considered. I know one could conclude that if The Blues had been two down our own fans could have invaded to get a second chance but that is a separate issue. Firstly a fair result must be got from the match. If then it has to be replayed with no away fans or behind closed doors so be it. The offending fans can be punished and their club fined. Southend may not have scored again and Bury may not have equallised had correct time been played but we shall never know and that is wrong. As for Mts and the act of God I would have to beg to differ. If it were of natural causes, hurricane, fog etc then yes it was just one of those things but it was done by man and as the bible so rightly points out that we were given free will I doubt any court could pin this act on God. I remember years ago an evangelical preacher who had his Marquee destroyed by winds and the insurers refused to pay as it was an act of god. They would however have paid if people had vandalised it or stolen it.

 

[grayhound]

if that had been a Premier$hite or international game and the fans run on the fans would of got life long bans. Couldnt believe it the fans could of done anythink to players. Think if any of the fans touched a southend player Barrett would sort em out though

 

[C C Csiders]

I really can't think of any reason at all why the referee on Saturday could not have blown his whistle, taken the players off the field, and announce that the game would not be re-started until the perimeter was cleared. Thus giving the "stewards" and "police" (inverted commas deliberate) ample opportunity to clear them away.

The referee was clearly in the wrong here, and I would hope will be punished by the authorities.

 

[sufcintheprem]

Interestingly though, if you apply the rule to entering the field of play you're opening a whole can of worms.

We'd have had points deducted from the Macc game for sure, particularly as at the time they were still our promotion rivals and our celebrations probably took a few minutes off.

It would need an independent assessment team, something that the FL seem worryingly poor at creating.

You probably have to put it in the referee's hands. It's a big call to make but it's a big game to be refereeing.

 

[Scamps]

SO what.....!!! they ran on the pitch..... Big deal... It's done now... I'm sure we've never done anything like that... we should be talking about getting behind the lads for sunday...

 

[* ORM *]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ May 11 2005,11:17)]I really can't think of any reason at all why the referee on Saturday could not have blown his whistle, taken the players off the field, and announce that the game would not be re-started until the perimeter was cleared. Thus giving the "stewards" and "police" (inverted commas deliberate) ample opportunity to clear them away.

The referee was clearly in the wrong here, and I would hope will be punished by the authorities.

Not necessarily. Under FA rules I believe he could also abandon the game or end the game early at his discretion and if 75 minutes had been played the result would stand.

Forget looking at the rights and wrongs of the referees, stewards and police. We had 46 games to gain automatic promotion and more to the point we needed 2 wins from the last 5 games that would have achieved it.

We didn't, we're in the play-offs. Get over it.

 

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (* ORM * @ May 11 2005,11:55)]Forget looking at the rights and wrongs of the referees, stewards and police. We had 46 games to gain automatic promotion and more to the point we needed 2 wins from the last 5 games that would have achieved it.

We didn't, we're in the play-offs. Get over it.

Am over it. Strangely, got over it very soon after the game. Looked at it philosphically.

Just joining the debate, and querying why, during the game the referee did absolutely nothing to ensure player safety.

 

[Guest]

I believe that for an individual to persue Grimsby, they would 1) have to prove negligence on Grimsby's part and 2) have to prove loss (suffering damage etc).