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Jam_Man

Life President
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
25,545
Location
Southend
i for one have never suggested that he is a crook, but he is a proven liar, he has lied to us the fans endlessly. UTB

I dont think its as black and white as that.

He has promised things (warchest) that never materialised due to the economic downturn, which for me is understandable.

His biggest failing is to have played down the seriousness of this tax bill since July. Now he may well have done it because he actually believed he would be ok paying it with Sainsburys money and just caught out. That makes him an idiot for gambling, but not neccessarily a proven liar.

He has made mistakes and isnt blame free but dont think at this moment Id tar him with the same brush most others seem to be.
 

Norfolkshrimp

First XI
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
390
He is only doing what businesses have been doing for years

There's a big difference between winging it for a few weeks due to cashflow issues and withholding it for YEARS

The businesses that do it eventually get caught and go under, it ain't rocket science is it, the people you should never frig with are HMRC.....your argument holds no water at all imo !

We have received the VAT on ticket sales and other income over the past 2-3 years and basically spent money that belonged to someone else.

As for the statement by RM that £1.9M has been used for the planning application for FF, what gives him the right to spend the clubs money on something that will never be owned by the club ?

It all stinks if you ask me and was very predictable !
 

philtalkin

Manager
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
1,055
There's a big difference between winging it for a few weeks due to cashflow issues and withholding it for YEARS

The businesses that do it eventually get caught and go under, it ain't rocket science is it, the people you should never frig with are HMRC.....your argument holds no water at all imo !

We have received the VAT on ticket sales and other income over the past 2-3 years and basically spent money that belonged to someone else.

As for the statement by RM that £1.9M has been used for the planning application for FF, what gives him the right to spend the clubs money on something that will never be owned by the club ?

It all stinks if you ask me and was very predictable !

But, if that's what happened, he clearly has got away with not paying HMRC for 2-3 years, so your argument holds no water.

He has already spent much more than 1.9 mill of his own money (albeit with the hope of making a decent return on his investment).

And, whatsmore, it isn't unusual for a business to spend money on a product or service which they may never own, in the hope that they will financially benefit from it in the future.

What business are you involved in?
 

Norfolkshrimp

First XI
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
390
But, if that's what happened, he clearly has got away with not paying HMRC for 2-3 years, so your argument holds no water.

He has already spent much more than 1.9 mill of his own money (albeit with the hope of making a decent return on his investment).

And, whatsmore, it isn't unusual for a business to spend money on a product or service which they may never own, in the hope that they will financially benefit from it in the future.

What business are you involved in?
I have personally owned two businesses, the larger having grown from a small start up passing through a very intense cash burn period with little income during the research and development stage to eventually return a decent profit and I can tell you the HMRC are not the devil, they are entitled to be paid within a reasonable time scale and as my accountant has always advocated they are the one entity you never mess with.

RM has effectively used them as a loan facility by withholding this money for so long.

The web of companies involved with SUFC, Roots Hall, FF etc. is very complex and transparency is not one of RM's attributes.

I am not saying he doesn't care about the club but he has been wreckless imo and playing with HMRC like this is like poking a tiger with a stick, eventually you get bitten !
 

ElstreeBlue

Coach
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
601
Location
Elstree
But, if that's what happened, he clearly has got away with not paying HMRC for 2-3 years, so your argument holds no water.

He has already spent much more than 1.9 mill of his own money (albeit with the hope of making a decent return on his investment).

And, whatsmore, it isn't unusual for a business to spend money on a product or service which they may never own, in the hope that they will financially benefit from it in the future.

What business are you involved in?

Sorry - how much of his own money has he actually put into the club (as opposed to how much has been borrowed as finance)? Genuine question: is that figure more or less than £1.9m? Please can you supply the exact figure. I don't have it. Also, has he received any money back from the club (eg salary, etc)? Again, I don't know.

As to the second point (which I think you were making in answer to Norfolk Shrimp's point), any outgoings should be spent by the appropriate legal entity. Hypothetically, as a matter of company law, if in a group of companies any of Company A's money is spent on things which should have been spent by another company (Company B) and Company A's shareholders lose their shares or Company A's creditors don't get paid in full, that would be a very serious issue indeed. Company A must not spend money that should really be spent by Company B such that creditors and shareholders of Company A lose out and Company B gains. That's not how company law works. I'd hope that the company which owns the football stadium and the rights to the FF development has been the company spending the money on all costs involved with the stadium development. The football club is just a tenant should not spend a penny on the stadium/development.
 
Last edited:

Jam_Man

Life President
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
25,545
Location
Southend
Sorry - how much of his own money has he actually put into the club (as opposed to how much has been borrowed as finance)? Genuine question: is that figure more or less than £1.9m? Please can you supply the exact figure. I don't have it. Also, has he received any money back from the club (eg salary, etc)? Again, I don't know.

As to the second point (which I think you were making in answer to Norfolk Shrimp's point), any outgoings should be spent by the appropriate legal entity. Hypothetically, as a matter of company law, if in a group of companies any of Company A's money is spent on things which should have been spent by another company (Company B) and Company A's shareholders lose their shares or Company A's creditors don't get paid in full, that would be a very serious issue indeed. Company A must not spend money that should really be spent by Company B such that creditors and shareholders of Company A lose out and Company B gains. That's not how company law works. I'd hope that the company which owns the football stadium and the rights to the FF development has been the company spending the money on all costs involved with the stadium development. The football club is just a tenant should not spend a penny on the stadium/development.

If that was the case we would have been out of business years ago.

If it wasnt for SEL and Ron Martin pumping money in we wouldnt be here, but I guess you dont mind it happening that way round?
 
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