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Benfleet A1

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Polling going well over there. Rubber bullets and stun grenades all round at the moment. No mention of this from 'He Who Must Be Ignored' Must be hiding under the table........I mean leading the protests from the front.
 

Massimo Giovanni

Old Timer⭐
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Tangers/Barna has responded to a few of my mentions on the subject in the Brexit thread; he seemed to think it was no big deal a few weeks ago.; as dismissive as an EU president!
IMO what is happening shows a side of Spain, and the EU that many don't recognise and also refuse to acknowledge;- across the globe in despot nations this news WILL be reported as the portrayal of EU "democracy" and "freedom" in action.
The Scots, and Brexit "had it easy".
 

Bielzibubz

President
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Eastwood, the posh part of Rayleigh..
What I find astonishing is a Western democratic country is openly putting down and denying with brute force the clear will of section of their population with their own autonomous government. It was only through the Franco dictatorship that they were denied a lot of their own identity but thankfully he's been gone decades and it's about time the Spanish government realised that this is a problem they CANNOT win with force and rather than prolong the inevitable they should give the people of Catalonia the voice and legal the vote they demand.
 

Benfleet A1

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What I find astonishing is a Western democratic country is openly putting down and denying with brute force the clear will of section of their population with their own autonomous government. It was only through the Franco dictatorship that they were denied a lot of their own identity but thankfully he's been gone decades and it's about time the Spanish government realised that this is a problem they CANNOT win with force and rather than prolong the inevitable they should give the people of Catalonia the voice and legal the vote they demand.

Then they can instantly join the EU and recieve all the benefits of that, just like what Scotland wanted to do. Except the EU's own constitution will not allow that to happen.

But I bet it will.
 

Massimo Giovanni

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Then they can instantly join the EU and recieve all the benefits of that, just like what Scotland wanted to do. Except the EU's own constitution will not allow that to happen.

But I bet it will.

Quite!
One rule for one and another rule for another.
I don't know what the Independence Manifesto entails; at a guess I would say they are after better control of their finances, culture, laws, borders.....................seems familiar?
 

Benfleet A1

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Quite!
One rule for one and another rule for another.
I don't know what the Independence Manifesto entails; at a guess I would say they are after better control of their finances, culture, laws, borders.....................seems familiar?

Yes, I have heard that somewhere else before. It will come to me later.
 

Another Surrey Shrimper

Life President
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Simple rule - don't beat up your own citizens for holding an unofficial referendum. The Spanish government can ignore the result, its unofficial. I've just seen footage of firemen protecting the public from the police. The government have turned an irritant into a national disgrace.
 

southendkid

Director⭐
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Messages
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Then they can instantly join the EU and recieve all the benefits of that, just like what Scotland wanted to do. Except the EU's own constitution will not allow that to happen.

But I bet it will.

It won't, there has to be a unanimous agreement from EU members to let a newly formed nation to stay in the EU and Spain would never go along with it. This isn't like Scotland, we let them have their referendum and if the leave campaign had won we wouldn't have stopped them joining the EU, Spain would be a different story.

Catalonia is rich and 20% of Spain's economy comes from it, Spain would probably suffer an economic crash if they got independence. Catalonia does not have the infrastructure to function as a nation, without the trade agreements and protection the EU offers they would likely also suffer big economic issues if they went independent, as long as they weren't in the EU both sides would suffer heavily. Spain would suffer whether Catalonia was in the EU or not so they'd be keen to make them suffer alongside them in the hopes that the Catalan people might realise they can't function as an independent nation.

The Spanish government are handling this incredibly badly though, I have no doubt part of why Scotland voted to stay is because we respected their wishes to have a referendum and so we couldn't be painted as the evil English oppressing Scotland's wishes. By stopping an unofficial referendum Spain are painting themselves as the villains of the piece.
 

Benfleet A1

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It won't, there has to be a unanimous agreement from EU members to let a newly formed nation to stay in the EU and Spain would never go along with it. This isn't like Scotland, we let them have their referendum and if the leave campaign had won we wouldn't have stopped them joining the EU, Spain would be a different story.

Catalonia is rich and 20% of Spain's economy comes from it, Spain would probably suffer an economic crash if they got independence. Catalonia does not have the infrastructure to function as a nation, without the trade agreements and protection the EU offers they would likely also suffer big economic issues if they went independent, as long as they weren't in the EU both sides would suffer heavily. Spain would suffer whether Catalonia was in the EU or not so they'd be keen to make them suffer alongside them in the hopes that the Catalan people might realise they can't function as an independent nation.

The Spanish government are handling this incredibly badly though, I have no doubt part of why Scotland voted to stay is because we respected their wishes to have a referendum and so we couldn't be painted as the evil English oppressing Scotland's wishes. By stopping an unofficial referendum Spain are painting themselves as the villains of the piece.

I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve a word you have said but where the EU are concerned, member nations will sometimes be told to suck it up, regardless of their beloved and very selective 'all in agreement' agreement. This might not be the case this time but I wouldn't be at all suprised if it isn't the case in the very near future.

Spain might well be seeing the beginning of what the real aim of the EU really is.
 

Benfleet A1

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Reports from the BBC that over 300 people have been injured by police in Catalonia. Now call me cynical and all that but why no words of condamnation from the likes of Junker and co? Trouble in paradise perhaps?
 

Massimo Giovanni

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Has there been any word from May?

I would not expect there to be, seriously????
Now JC as opposition ought to be doing that sort of thing; it is part of the role in the the opposition to do it when the UK Guv (official) can't be seen as meddling, but as yet nothing.
Spain and the rest of the EU will do what Germany tells them to do; AND at present Germany has it's banks full with Greek and Italian debt to not want a new run on the euro from Spain.
 

Benfleet A1

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Has there been any word from May?

The impact of Catalonia declearing independence if the majority vote si will be of massive concern to Spain and the EU. Seeing as the police have been knocking several shades out of the locals for, what looks like on the whole, a peaceful demostration, I would say that this is only the begining of a lot worse to come.

So in answer to your rather glib question and knowing for well that very few in Europe give a monkies for what she says, why would she?

This is a EU problem that is becoming very apparent very quickly, hence why I asked my question.

It will be bloody difficult even for you to blame this on May and the Tories but by all means, give it your best shot.
 

southendkid

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I've seen some people defending it by pointing out that the referendum was illegal so the police action is OK, whilst that's true it doesn't mean the response is justifiable.

Catalan actually did a similar referendum 3 years ago that the government made clear would be illegal if it were held, Catalan held it anyway but the government back then had the common sense to not start responding with force, they just repeated that the referendum wasn't approved when the results came in, pointed out all the pro-union people were protesting against the legality of the vote by not voting in it, heavily skewing the results, and then they fined the guy that organised it. That was a much more sensible response, why didn't they do that again?
 

Benfleet A1

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I've seen some people defending it by pointing out that the referendum was illegal so the police action is OK, whilst that's true it doesn't mean the response is justifiable.

Catalan actually did a similar referendum 3 years ago that the government made clear would be illegal if it were held, Catalan held it anyway but the government back then had the common sense to not start responding with force, they just repeated that the referendum wasn't approved when the results came in, pointed out all the pro-union people were protesting against the legality of the vote by not voting in it, heavily skewing the results, and then they fined the guy that organised it. That was a much more sensible response, why didn't they do that again?

Possiblly because Catalonia said it would declare independence within a couple of days of the result. I think this is going to run for a bit. Perhaps Junker will say something after he has slept off a couple of lunchtime bottles of claret.
 

mattitouk

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Simple rule - don't beat up your own citizens for holding an unofficial referendum. The Spanish government can ignore the result, its unofficial. I've just seen footage of firemen protecting the public from the police. The government have turned an irritant into a national disgrace.

Yeah I saw that also, it's not every day you see a load of riot police with batons kicking the crap out of fireman. I doubt the firemen will be in a hurry to put out the flames of a police station anytime in the near future.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...pendence-human-shield-barcelona-a7976766.html
 

Benfleet A1

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Yeah I saw that also, it's not every day you see a load of riot police with batons kicking the crap out of fireman. I doubt the firemen will be in a hurry to put out the flames of a police station anytime in the near future.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...pendence-human-shield-barcelona-a7976766.html

They were'nt local police apparently. There was also reports of that being the case. I have seen Spainish riot police in action before up close, nasty barstewards. Going to be a interesting couple of days I think.
 

Another Surrey Shrimper

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The impact of Catalonia declearing independence if the majority vote si will be of massive concern to Spain and the EU. Seeing as the police have been knocking several shades out of the locals for, what looks like on the whole, a peaceful demostration, I would say that this is only the begining of a lot worse to come.

So in answer to your rather glib question and knowing for well that very few in Europe give a monkies for what she says, why would she?

This is a EU problem that is becoming very apparent very quickly, hence why I asked my question.

It will be bloody difficult even for you to blame this on May and the Tories but by all means, give it your best shot.
it was a genuine question because I hadn't seen anything but hadn't been online much and may have missed it if she had made a statement
Harder for Junker / EU to comment I would have thought - UK are that bit further removed
The Foreign Office have now issued a statement and its not worth much
 
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