Clohessey v. Assombalonga

[RobM]

Sitting as one does in east Black, I thought I'd do a 'player watch' and compare two players' contribution. I selected these two, one each half, just to see what they do. This isn't to condemn or condone, just a comparison between striker and defender.

Clohessey
Short accurate passes 6
Long ball accurate 1
Long ball inaccurate 2
Tackles won 1
Throw - accurate 2
Throw - inaccurate 2
Headers won 1
Cross cleared 2
Cross accurate 1

Assombalonga
Good run & cross 1
Short accurate pass 2
Turn and shot 1
Close control + short pass 2


Offside 2
Lost control 1

Clohessey first half, Assombalonga second half.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

You need to compare 2 like for like players, not a LB and a striker

 

[RobM]

Is that popular opinion? If so I'll give it a go Tuesday.

 

[OldBlueLady]

You need to compare 2 like for like players, not a LB and a striker

*Ahem* right back....if you hold your hands in front of you palm down and stick your thumbs at right angles to your hand you will see the left hand one makes a "L" shape to help you remember, hope that helps! :whistling:

 

[canveyshrimper]

This isn't having a go at your experiment, but some of these daft stats are IMO totally unnecessary. The game of football is quite simple, score more goals than your opponents. I really can't be arsed with all these pass completion stats, or tackles won blah. blah.

Goal scoring stas and points accrued in the league table is all that's needed.

 

[Onion_Bag_Dave]

RobM ignore canveyshrimper. ;)

Stats are interesting, whilst they may not prove everything, they certainly prove something! Surely?

I think this is a really good idea!

Don't want to steal your idea, but maybe pre every match people can do this! We chose a certain few players and compare them. We'd then really see how differently people view the game!

For example yesterday I was in the NB and I thought Straker had a blinder when he came on.

People in West that I spoke to thought he was ****.

 

[OldBlueLady]

In the West Dave, and thought Straker had an excellent game when he came on. Most impressed I've been with him.

 

[Onion_Bag_Dave]

In today's game stats and tactics are becoming increasingly important!

Tactics are needed nowadays! Stats are needed! To analyse a players performance! Surely a player who makes more completed passes is better than a player who doesn't?

 

[davewebbsbrain]

In today's game stats and tactics are becoming increasingly important!

Tactics are needed nowadays! Stats are needed! To analyse a players performance! Surely a player who makes more completed passes is better than a player who doesn't?

The problem with comparing players is the interaction of the players around them. For instance, the LB area always seems to be a problem and there is never anyone to play to feet whereas at RB, Clohessey always seems to have an outlet. So Clohessy's passes completed stats will be higher than Prosser's. The same in CM. One will be the ball winner and one will be the creative passer. You can never compare because of these issues.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

*Ahem* right back....if you hold your hands in front of you palm down and stick your thumbs at right angles to your hand you will see the left hand one makes a "L" shape to help you remember, hope that helps! :whistling:

Thta's exactly what I did but I was looking in the mirror at the time....my bad

 

[canveyshrimper]

RobM ignore canveyshrimper. ;)

Stats are interesting, whilst they may not prove everything, they certainly prove something! Surely?

I think this is a really good idea!

Don't want to steal your idea, but maybe pre every match people can do this! We chose a certain few players and compare them. We'd then really see how differently people view the game!

For example yesterday I was in the NB and I thought Straker had a blinder when he came on.

People in West that I spoke to thought he was ****.

As I said in my post I'm not denigrating Rob's experiment, it's my opinion that football is not a stat based game as such. It's a very simple game with a very simple premise which does not need over complication.

 

[canveyshrimper]

In today's game stats and tactics are becoming increasingly important!

Tactics are needed nowadays! Stats are needed! To analyse a players performance! Surely a player who makes more completed passes is better than a player who doesn't?

I'm not arguing against tactics they've always been part of the game and always will be.

As far as a player making more completed passes than one who doesn't can also be distorted. The player who makes less "completed" passes just might make the one where the winning goal is scored from.

 

[Onion_Bag_Dave]

Very true! Somebody should come up with some kind of formula!

That person would become a very popular person!

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

They would also have to be compared at the same time if you want it to have any value. Yesterday a good first half would see better stats for player a, but player b would have poor stats if we have a bad second half as a team.

 

[fbm]

Opta do all this but I think you have to pay to subscribe to their stats site. They are incredibly useful to managers and coaches.

 

[southend4eva]

Sitting as one does in east Black, I thought I'd do a 'player watch' and compare two players' contribution. I selected these two, one each half, just to see what they do. This isn't to condemn or condone, just a comparison between striker and defender.

Clohessey
Short accurate passes 6
Long ball accurate 1
Long ball inaccurate 2
Tackles won 1
Throw - accurate 2
Throw - inaccurate 2
Headers won 1
Cross cleared 2
Cross accurate 1

Assombalonga
Good run & cross 1
Short accurate pass 2
Turn and shot 1
Close control + short pass 2


Offside 2
Lost control 1

Clohessey first half, Assombalonga second half.

I really appreciate the idea behind this and am very happy with any effort along these lines. Thanks a lot for doing it. Keep developing this as I will read with interest.:thumbsup:

 

[Jedi Shrimper]

Sitting as one does in east Black, I thought I'd do a 'player watch' and compare two players' contribution. I selected these two, one each half, just to see what they do. This isn't to condemn or condone, just a comparison between striker and defender.

Clohessey
Short accurate passes 6
Long ball accurate 1
Long ball inaccurate 2
Tackles won 1
Throw - accurate 2
Throw - inaccurate 2
Headers won 1
Cross cleared 2
Cross accurate 1

Assombalonga
Good run & cross 1
Short accurate pass 2
Turn and shot 1
Close control + short pass 2


Offside 2
Lost control 1

Clohessey first half, Assombalonga second half.

Really interesting stuff Rob, agree with others comparing a full back & a striker seems a little pointless. Comparing full-backs or 2 strikers would seem better. Or even just concentrate on 1 player for a full game. I'll be interested to see how this develops.

 

[Southampton Shrimper]

I agree with other comments that you need to compare like for like. By all accounts, the two halves yesterday were quite different, so the first half player is likely to come out with better statistics than the second half player. The demands on a full back are of course different to those of a forward. There is no real comparison to be made from your statistics, as there is only one category they both have in common - short accurate passes.

What you could do is make a comparison with two players playing in the same position, so in one match our right back and the opposition right back, for example, and keep note of both of them for the whole 90 minutes. Or you could get some statistics for one player playing in a certain position for one match and compare them with another player playing in the same position in another match, which could provide ammunition for a debate on, say, Prosser v Straker or Belford v Smith.

If you've got some old videos, maybe you could even have a go at tackling Darryl v Bart? :dim:

 

[Pubey]

I'm waiting for the Man City/OPTA dataset on PL players so I can run some analyses. There a well used analogy about Big Sam using stats to work out the distances that players should stand from the 'big man up top' so they're in the right place for knockdowns/headed clearances. Stats are more and more important in football, but it's not just about accumulating 'effective' players, they need to gel as a unit and obviously man management is a big part of that too.

 

[EastStandBlue]

There was a great article from Simon Kuper (I think) the other week, explaining the increasing prevalence of Moneyball-esque statistical analysis in football. It’s on the rise, and clubs who don’t use it are going to be left behind. Chelsea are widely regarded as having the best approach in the Premier League, right down to Abramovich sanctioning statisticians to compile a database of penalties that can be accessed when needed.

However, he also mentioned that it can go wrong and backfire quite spectacularly, which is just what’s alleged to have happened at Liverpool. Basically, Fenway came in and Dalglish/Comolli were given the remit that transfers had to make sense from both a financial and statistical outlook. Carroll was highlighted as being the striker in the Premier League with the highest conversion rate of crossed balls into the box, so was bought at an outlandish price. When he backfired, Fenway attempted to address the situation by recruiting the player who delivered the most crosses into the box – step forward Aston Villa’s Stewart Downing who, with Fenway believing that he’d solve Carroll’s malaise, was also recruited at an outlandish price.

On a very base level, it made sense. Best conversion rate + best crossing rate = goals. Only, such is the organisation and nature of Premier League defences, scoring from a cross into the box is supposed to be the least efficient means of actually scoring a goal. Liverpool completely failed to factor in that data, and spent in excess of £50m on a dud project. The failure to recognise that cost Comolli his job, with Dalglish falling soon after.

There’s countless analyses that are similar – the number of freekicks that are shots on goal is dwindling massively after the sports science/data analysis team hired by the German national team uncovered that the success rate of scoring directly is significantly lower than the success rate of floating a delivery into a dangerous area.