Cuts coming your way

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/dec/16/public-servants-to-lose-jobs

 

[Cricko]

I tend to agree with this guy's comments.

"And all due to Labour's irresponsible economic policies."

Like the policies of deregulation & privatisation that they copied from their Tory predecessors? Yes, New Labour were absolutey terrible in many ways, their continual war-mongering above all (though the Tories always supported that & have now willingly taken it over).

BUT HOW DOES THAT EXCUSE THE TORIES & LIBDEMS NOW?

They are the government now, not the Labour Party. They are the ones cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs, destroying OUR welfare state which is funded by OUR money & OUR labour. The NHS, education, pensions, unemployment benefit, incapacity benefit, etc... these are not gifts that the government gives us but things that we have a right to because we collectively fund them & work for them. Things that our parents' & grandparents' generations had to fight to get, & which we apparently now have to fight for again. This is supposed to be our country, but it is run by & for the rich at the expense of the working class, & it is rapidly getting worse. How far do they think they can push us? How far are we going to allow them to push us?

The Tories are exploiting an economic crisis to justify carrying out their same old ideological aims. What sane person honestly believes that the way to improve an economy is to put hundreds of thousands of people out their jobs? All this of cutting public services & public sector jobs & pay, etc has been done in Ireland (cutting minimum wage, raising retirement age to 68, etc) & it made the crisis predictably worse. So they cut again... and again... These cuts are to economics what bleeding a patient is to medicine. The only real purpose they serve is to redistribute wealth from the majority to the rich. For them there is no crisis. For us there will be no recovery (or so David Cameron has promised us).

And yes, the UK is in debt. But it was in debt for over 50 years after World War 2. The debt does not have to be paid off by next week.

And there are plenty of sensible ways of saving money that don't involve mass-unemployment or putting students into £30-40 thousand of personal debt:

1) End the pointless, brutal, imperial war in Afghanistan/Pakistan

2) Cut the pay of, let's say, all government ministers & MPs, say to £30,000 a year+ LEGITIMATE expenses. That's a pretty good salary, no? (far more than most of us get) And after all, "we're all in it together" & it's not like they just get into politics for the money, vanity, & power. Is it?

3) Stop funding Britain's very own "Weapons of Mass Destruction", starting with the nukes they keep in the Clyde and the bombs they drop on Afghans.

4) Stop funding the monarchy. Let them pay for their own weddings. Better yet, take their land off them & tell them to get proper jobs rather than swanning about in their flashy cars.

5) Cut the bonuses & pay of bankers. Why should the public subsidise the private property & wealth of the rich? If the banks need our public money then they should be under public ownership & control, & be run for our benefit. We should get the banks' profits, not just the debts from bailing them out.

6) Make the millionaires & the billionaires pay the taxes they ALREADY legally owe, & close the legal loopholes. Rather than letting these people get away with tax aviodance, tax evasion, & tax fraud.

When the government have done all, or even some, of that, then they can come back & tell us we "can't afford" to fund education, pensions, etc, and we'll think about it.

As for the police, I doubt they'll be losing their jobs. Who would weild the water cannons, fire the rubber (coated metal) bullets, ban political marches (all of which is being seriously & openly discussed by politicians & police)? Who would kettle protesters, crack skulls & drag people out of wheelchairs? Who would shoot an innocent man in the head while he's lieing restrained & helpless on the ground? Such heroes, the police!

Rather than get their jobs cut, they'll probably be given more powers. Maybe even a payrise if they're lucky. After all, "a dog starved at its master's gate predicts the ruin of the state." Got to feed them well enough to keep their loyalty.

 

[Hotman]

If that bloke put as much effort into his own job as he did in that article, hewouldnt be earning far less than 30k and would then realise that he wouldn't do an mp's job for the salary they get

I tend to agree with this guy's comments.

"And all due to Labour's irresponsible economic policies."

Like the policies of deregulation & privatisation that they copied from their Tory predecessors? Yes, New Labour were absolutey terrible in many ways, their continual war-mongering above all (though the Tories always supported that & have now willingly taken it over).

BUT HOW DOES THAT EXCUSE THE TORIES & LIBDEMS NOW?

They are the government now, not the Labour Party. They are the ones cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs, destroying OUR welfare state which is funded by OUR money & OUR labour. The NHS, education, pensions, unemployment benefit, incapacity benefit, etc... these are not gifts that the government gives us but things that we have a right to because we collectively fund them & work for them. Things that our parents' & grandparents' generations had to fight to get, & which we apparently now have to fight for again. This is supposed to be our country, but it is run by & for the rich at the expense of the working class, & it is rapidly getting worse. How far do they think they can push us? How far are we going to allow them to push us?

The Tories are exploiting an economic crisis to justify carrying out their same old ideological aims. What sane person honestly believes that the way to improve an economy is to put hundreds of thousands of people out their jobs? All this of cutting public services & public sector jobs & pay, etc has been done in Ireland (cutting minimum wage, raising retirement age to 68, etc) & it made the crisis predictably worse. So they cut again... and again... These cuts are to economics what bleeding a patient is to medicine. The only real purpose they serve is to redistribute wealth from the majority to the rich. For them there is no crisis. For us there will be no recovery (or so David Cameron has promised us).

And yes, the UK is in debt. But it was in debt for over 50 years after World War 2. The debt does not have to be paid off by next week.

And there are plenty of sensible ways of saving money that don't involve mass-unemployment or putting students into £30-40 thousand of personal debt:

1) End the pointless, brutal, imperial war in Afghanistan/Pakistan

2) Cut the pay of, let's say, all government ministers & MPs, say to £30,000 a year+ LEGITIMATE expenses. That's a pretty good salary, no? (far more than most of us get) And after all, "we're all in it together" & it's not like they just get into politics for the money, vanity, & power. Is it?

3) Stop funding Britain's very own "Weapons of Mass Destruction", starting with the nukes they keep in the Clyde and the bombs they drop on Afghans.

4) Stop funding the monarchy. Let them pay for their own weddings. Better yet, take their land off them & tell them to get proper jobs rather than swanning about in their flashy cars.

5) Cut the bonuses & pay of bankers. Why should the public subsidise the private property & wealth of the rich? If the banks need our public money then they should be under public ownership & control, & be run for our benefit. We should get the banks' profits, not just the debts from bailing them out.

6) Make the millionaires & the billionaires pay the taxes they ALREADY legally owe, & close the legal loopholes. Rather than letting these people get away with tax aviodance, tax evasion, & tax fraud.

When the government have done all, or even some, of that, then they can come back & tell us we "can't afford" to fund education, pensions, etc, and we'll think about it.

As for the police, I doubt they'll be losing their jobs. Who would weild the water cannons, fire the rubber (coated metal) bullets, ban political marches (all of which is being seriously & openly discussed by politicians & police)? Who would kettle protesters, crack skulls & drag people out of wheelchairs? Who would shoot an innocent man in the head while he's lieing restrained & helpless on the ground? Such heroes, the police!

Rather than get their jobs cut, they'll probably be given more powers. Maybe even a payrise if they're lucky. After all, "a dog starved at its master's gate predicts the ruin of the state." Got to feed them well enough to keep their loyalty.

 

[chadded]

Serious question - Cricko, have you actually lost the plot?

 

[Davros]

5) Cut the bonuses & pay of bankers. Why should the public subsidise the private property & wealth of the rich? =

And at the same interval, why should the Private sector workers have to fill the gold lined pensions of the public sector?

 

[Cricko]

Serious question - Cricko, have you actually lost the plot?

Why ? A lot of what the guy states makes sense.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I tend to agree with this guy's comments.

"And all due to Labour's irresponsible economic policies."

Like the policies of deregulation & privatisation that they copied from their Tory predecessors? Yes, New Labour were absolutey terrible in many ways, their continual war-mongering above all (though the Tories always supported that & have now willingly taken it over).

BUT HOW DOES THAT EXCUSE THE TORIES & LIBDEMS NOW?

They are the government now, not the Labour Party. They are the ones cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs, destroying OUR welfare state which is funded by OUR money & OUR labour. The NHS, education, pensions, unemployment benefit, incapacity benefit, etc... these are not gifts that the government gives us but things that we have a right to because we collectively fund them & work for them. Things that our parents' & grandparents' generations had to fight to get, & which we apparently now have to fight for again. This is supposed to be our country, but it is run by & for the rich at the expense of the working class, & it is rapidly getting worse. How far do they think they can push us? How far are we going to allow them to push us?

The Tories are exploiting an economic crisis to justify carrying out their same old ideological aims. What sane person honestly believes that the way to improve an economy is to put hundreds of thousands of people out their jobs? All this of cutting public services & public sector jobs & pay, etc has been done in Ireland (cutting minimum wage, raising retirement age to 68, etc) & it made the crisis predictably worse. So they cut again... and again... These cuts are to economics what bleeding a patient is to medicine. The only real purpose they serve is to redistribute wealth from the majority to the rich. For them there is no crisis. For us there will be no recovery (or so David Cameron has promised us).

And yes, the UK is in debt. But it was in debt for over 50 years after World War 2. The debt does not have to be paid off by next week.

And there are plenty of sensible ways of saving money that don't involve mass-unemployment or putting students into £30-40 thousand of personal debt:

1) End the pointless, brutal, imperial war in Afghanistan/Pakistan

2) Cut the pay of, let's say, all government ministers & MPs, say to £30,000 a year+ LEGITIMATE expenses. That's a pretty good salary, no? (far more than most of us get) And after all, "we're all in it together" & it's not like they just get into politics for the money, vanity, & power. Is it?

3) Stop funding Britain's very own "Weapons of Mass Destruction", starting with the nukes they keep in the Clyde and the bombs they drop on Afghans.

4) Stop funding the monarchy. Let them pay for their own weddings. Better yet, take their land off them & tell them to get proper jobs rather than swanning about in their flashy cars.

5) Cut the bonuses & pay of bankers. Why should the public subsidise the private property & wealth of the rich? If the banks need our public money then they should be under public ownership & control, & be run for our benefit. We should get the banks' profits, not just the debts from bailing them out.

6) Make the millionaires & the billionaires pay the taxes they ALREADY legally owe, & close the legal loopholes. Rather than letting these people get away with tax aviodance, tax evasion, & tax fraud.

When the government have done all, or even some, of that, then they can come back & tell us we "can't afford" to fund education, pensions, etc, and we'll think about it.

As for the police, I doubt they'll be losing their jobs. Who would weild the water cannons, fire the rubber (coated metal) bullets, ban political marches (all of which is being seriously & openly discussed by politicians & police)? Who would kettle protesters, crack skulls & drag people out of wheelchairs? Who would shoot an innocent man in the head while he's lieing restrained & helpless on the ground? Such heroes, the police!

Rather than get their jobs cut, they'll probably be given more powers. Maybe even a payrise if they're lucky. After all, "a dog starved at its master's gate predicts the ruin of the state." Got to feed them well enough to keep their loyalty.

That's one hell of a flawed argument. The coalition aren't proposing to pay off the debt by next week. In fact I think their short term plans are to increase the amount of debt, any cuts are just cuts in the amount debt is increasing.

Reducing the wages of 650 or so MPs isn't going to solve it. That's not even going to make up for the shortfall in income tax as a result of restricting bankers' pay!

As an argument for greater investment in education though it's pretty persuasive.

 

[chadded]

By calling it a ''pointless war,' you are inferring that Sept 11 2001 doesn't matter. Did you support military action in 2001? All we are doing in finishing a job. You're a worker, do you leave jobs half done? WE're talking about rebuilding a country here... a country, I've been to, and seen first hand, something I doubt you or the person you are agreeing with has done.

You may think Nuclear weapons are unnecessary, but I don't. If we don't have them, and Iran and or North Korea do, what does that say about us, and it is more than just national pride here..

As for the Police. What are you going to do if your house gets burgled? Call the Police? Why do you, and so many others think it perfectly acceptable to slate the Police left right and Chelsea, and then when something goes wrong, call them up and expect them to be sympathetic. A copper got stabbed yesterday trying to stop a person who was wanted on recall to prison, or for better words, a wanted criminal. Could you do that? Really?

I don't disagree with all of it, but we have to remember that the Government were elected, by the people, to lead. The Conservative Party polled most votes in the General election, and they have decided certain things. You can't expect them to please everyone, with a population of 60 million, that is impossible. Would labour be doing any better- I doubt it, or else they would still be in power.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

By calling it a ''pointless war,' you are inferring that Sept 11 2001 doesn't matter. Did you support military action in 2001? All we are doing in finishing a job. You're a worker, do you leave jobs half done? WE're talking about rebuilding a country here... a country, I've been to, and seen first hand, something I doubt you or the person you are agreeing with has done.

You may think Nuclear weapons are unnecessary, but I don't. If we don't have them, and Iran and or North Korea do, what does that say about us, and it is more than just national pride here..

As for the Police. What are you going to do if your house gets burgled? Call the Police? Why do you, and so many others think it perfectly acceptable to slate the Police left right and Chelsea, and then when something goes wrong, call them up and expect them to be sympathetic. A copper got stabbed yesterday trying to stop a person who was wanted on recall to prison, or for better words, a wanted criminal. Could you do that? Really?

I don't disagree with all of it, but we have to remember that the Government were elected, by the people, to lead. The Conservative Party polled most votes in the General election, and they have decided certain things. You can't expect them to please everyone, with a population of 60 million, that is impossible. Would labour be doing any better- I doubt it, or else they would still be in power.

You imply.We infer.

FWIW, I supported the Allied invasion in 2001 but the sell-by-date on that has now long passed.Afghanistan was practically in the Stone Age before any Allied troops arrived and will revert to a semi-feudal status as soon as we leave.The concept of nation building there is little more than a sick joke.

Don't get me started on nuclear weapons,please.

On the subject of cuts(see thread title) I hope that the Armed forces are making at least their fair share.Trident would be a good start.

 

[chadded]

You imply.We infer.

FWIW, I supported the Allied invasion in 2001 but the sell-by-date on that has now long passed.Afghanistan was practically in the Stone Age before any Allied troops arrived and will revert to a semi-feudal status as soon as we leave.The concept of nation building there is little more than a sick joke.

Don't get me started on nuclear weapons,please.

On the subject of cuts(see thread title) I hope that the Armed forces are making at least their fair share.Trident would be a good start.

If we pull out now, then people I served with, and mates of mine, will have died in vain. Better men, and women, than you will ever be. If you regard it as a sick joke, go out there and see for yourself, or have you not got the minerals. People like you sleep safe at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf. We walk away from Afghanistan now, and the terrorists will recreate September 11th with ease, of that there is no doubt. And you could be caught up in it...

I appreciate Nuclear weapons are controversial, but somewhere in the sea's of planet Earth,one of HMS's Vanguard, Victorious, Vigilant and Vengeance sits under an Ocean armed with Nuclear weapons, waiting for a signal and some co-ordinates from the PM to launch. That's one hell of a deterrant that keeps you safe. If we kept nuclear weapons that were land based, then the secret as to where they are kept would leak out, and security is at risk. Currently I believe of the 4 Submarines I mentioned, only the Captain of that ship, the PM, and the Defence Secretary know its location and its route. Better that way if you ask me.

As for the Armed Forces, the SDSR was painful, very painful.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Not in my name

If we pull out now, then people I served with, and mates of mine, will have died in vain. Better men, and women, than you will ever be. If you regard it as a sick joke, go out there and see for yourself, or have you not got the minerals. People like you sleep safe at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf. We walk away from Afghanistan now, and the terrorists will recreate September 11th with ease, of that there is no doubt. And you could be caught up in it...

I appreciate Nuclear weapons are controversial, but somewhere in the sea's of planet Earth,one of HMS's Vanguard, Victorious, Vigilant and Vengeance sits under an Ocean armed with Nuclear weapons, waiting for a signal and some co-ordinates from the PM to launch. That's one hell of a deterrant that keeps you safe. If we kept nuclear weapons that were land based, then the secret as to where they are kept would leak out, and security is at risk. Currently I believe of the 4 Submarines I mentioned, only the Captain of that ship, the PM, and the Defence Secretary know its location and its route. Better that way if you ask me.

As for the Armed Forces, the SDSR was painful, very painful.

NATO forces will have to pull out, sooner rather than later, because of the political imperatives.You'll just have to get used to the idea, I'm afraid.

As for the macho, bravado stuff, which you spout so readily,I'm really not interested in dignifying it with any arguments reply.
We've all seen A Few Good Men.I'm sure you'll remember what happened to the Jack Nicholson character at the end of the film.

 

[chadded]

Are you prepared to visit Afghanistan and see for yourself what British (and other nations) men and women are doing? I'm not trying to be macho, far from it, but I'm getting bored of people amking comments such as 'pointless, illegal war' (admittedly, that wasn't you) etc. I'm a soldier, that's my trade, it's what I'm experienced in. I think you may be a teacher- I don't tell you how to teach, or what teachers should do, because I do not know much about teaching, other than it causes my mrs to get stressed quite a bit and take it out on me, but that's another story. How can you, or anyone else comment on something that they know very little about? It doesn't make sense. But yes, it is a passionate subject for me, and I'm sure you appreciate why.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Are you prepared to visit Afghanistan and see for yourself what British (and other nations) men and women are doing? I'm not trying to be macho, far from it, but I'm getting bored of people amking comments such as 'pointless, illegal war' (admittedly, that wasn't you) etc. I'm a soldier, that's my trade, it's what I'm experienced in. I think you may be a teacher- I don't tell you how to teach, or what teachers should do, because I do not know much about teaching, other than it causes my mrs to get stressed quite a bit and take it out on me, but that's another story. How can you, or anyone else comment on something that they know very little about? It doesn't make sense. But yes, it is a passionate subject for me, and I'm sure you appreciate why.

You've thrown this rather dreary challenge my way before and I gave you my reasons for rejecting it at the time.

I don't think the war in Afghanistan is an illegal war at all.In fact I know full well that it isn't.It is, however, an unwinnable war, pretty much however you define winning.

Of course I respect your opinions as a soldier and I wouldn't dream of telling you what you should do.Elected politicians will eventually do that for me(and other like minded citizens, since we are now a majority against the war.I understand your passion too but you need to accept that a majority of citizens in NATO countries are now against the war.That will work its way through the democratic process(it has already begun to)and will ,as I said before, lead to a phased withdrawal in the near future.

Yes,I'm a teacher so I have every sympathy for your wife(and mine who's a teacher too).

 

[chadded]

Disagree. Out aim is to train the ASF (Afghan Security Forces) to be able to control the security of their country. Not an unachievable aim.

Anyway, cuts......

 

[Cricko]

By calling it a ''pointless war,' you are inferring that Sept 11 2001 doesn't matter. Did you support military action in 2001? All we are doing in finishing a job. You're a worker, do you leave jobs half done? WE're talking about rebuilding a country here... a country, I've been to, and seen first hand, something I doubt you or the person you are agreeing with has done.

9/11 goes without saying was tragic and if the US had taken any notice of the intelligence they had been given beforehand maybe could of been avoided.I did support the war in 2003 as I was lead to believe certain people had WOMD, had I of known then it was mostly about oil and getting one back for my dad maybe I would not have. The FACT is the Russians realised a long time ago they could never win in Afghanistan and neither will this coalition.The whole war is a waste of young men and women's lives and in perspective will not do as much as the renewed intelligence agency's that are helping stop the madman bombers.There own government is corrupt which hardly helps matters.

You may think Nuclear weapons are unnecessary, but I don't. If we don't have them, and Iran and or North Korea do, what does that say about us, and it is more than just national pride here..

The first person who ever lets off a nuclear weapon will start WW3 and nobody will win...If they cancelled half the cost of the programme they could of kept Ark Royal going and the Harriers which would of kept a lot more people not just in the services but outside in jobs...The cold war is over, I do not see nuclear weapons as a deterorant just a waste of colossal money.

As for the Police. What are you going to do if your house gets burgled? Call the Police? Why do you, and so many others think it perfectly acceptable to slate the Police left right and Chelsea, and then when something goes wrong, call them up and expect them to be sympathetic. A copper got stabbed yesterday trying to stop a person who was wanted on recall to prison, or for better words, a wanted criminal. Could you do that? Really?

Lol "the thieves with keys you mean"....I have absolutely no time whatsoever for the police...It would take me to long to write here how much I actually detest them (barring Spooner) so I will just answer your question. I had a Mercedes Van stolen a couple of years back it was worth about 7k + the tools etc on board about 10k in total..it was alarmed, immobilized and had a crook lock fixed to it...I phoned the police when it was stolen, all they did was give me a case number for the insurance, They never came anywhere near me for a statement and were not in the least interested..Maybe they were to busy working for the Government collecting more roadside stealth taxes or selling stolen goods to their mates on the cheap.

I don't disagree with all of it, but we have to remember that the Government were elected, by the people, to lead. The Conservative Party polled most votes in the General election, and they have decided certain things. You can't expect them to please everyone, with a population of 60 million, that is impossible. Would labour be doing any better- I doubt it, or else they would still be in power.

There has been very little difference between Labour and the Conservatives for years and that is half the problem..hence why such a poor turnout for the election and why they needed a coalition to gain power..Some go as far as to suggest Tony Blair was a Tory "plant"..I was talking to a retired HBOS high roller a couple of days back...He warned me that this country is nowhere near rock bottom yet..The government are trying to inflate the country out of a recession and it will not work..Come January and the VAT increase and sooner rather than later the Banks and City wanting to slow inflation by increasing interest rates and things will suddenly look bleak..I expect rallies and protests to suddenly become the norm and good luck to those people for standing up for what they believe in.

 

[Rob Noxious]

Disagree. Out aim is to train the ASF (Afghan Security Forces) to be able to control the security of their country. Not an unachievable aim.

Sir - I respect your courage in the field of battle. My worry is that you guys are being fed the same line that the US Army was in South Vietnam back in the late sixties-early seventies. :sad: