Holding hands with a baby

[A Century United]

Don't know if this picture has been posted on Shrimperzone before, but I thought it worth posting. First the background to the story, then scroll down to the picture:

Dr. Joseph Bruner at Vanderbilt is known for his work in fetal surgery, especially on babies with spina bifida, a condition in which the spine does not close properly during development. Vanderbilt confirms that little Samuel Armus was 21 weeks-old in the womb which makes the surgery very risky because if anything goes wrong, the baby cannot survive on its own. Dr. Bruner and his colleagues, however, have done numerous successful spina bifida surgeries on fetuses that are not yet viable. In this particular surgery, the baby's hand poked out of the incision in its mother's womb and Dr. Bruner says he instinctively offered his finger for the baby to hold. Most versions of the story say the baby reached out and grasped Dr. Bruner's finger, but in an article in USA Today on May 2, 2000, Dr. Bruner says both the mother and the baby were under anesthesia and could not move. Michael Clancy, the photographer who took the picture and who owns the copyright to it says, however, that out of the corner of his eye he saw the uterus shake and the baby's hand pop out of the surgical opening on its own. Clancy says that when the doctor put his finger into the baby's hand, the baby squeezed the finger and held on. You can read Clancy's description of the experience and more about the picture at his website at www.michaelclancy.com.

Update: The surgery was successful and little Samuel Armas was born on December 2, 1999, and has been developing well, according to his parents, Alex and Julie Armas.

Just a fantastic picture, and very thought provoking.

 

[OldBlueLady]

And another very emotive reason why the limit for legal abortion (unless convincing medical reasons) should have been lowered.

 

[osymandus]

And another very emotive reason why the limit for legal abortion (unless convincing medical reasons) should have been lowered.

Have to disagree , the choice is always the mothers , end of . The clasping is a reflex action . Untill the infant is away from the mother , i would always say the mother has the final say.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Have to disagree , the choice is always the mothers , end of . The clasping is a reflex action . Untill the infant is away from the mother , i would always say the mother has the final say.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there then. Not something I will ever change my opinion on. For an abortion to be carried out after 20 weeks, in my opinion, two doctors should have to agree on the validity of medical reasons.

 

[Southend_Lady]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there then. Not something I will ever change my opinion on. For an abortion to be carried out after 20 weeks, in my opinion, two doctors should have to agree on the validity of medical reasons.

I agree on this 100%. Unless there is some medical reason for the abortion I don't believe that it is right to terminate a baby's life when it is old enough to survive there and then.

I believe that it is all about a life choice and making a decision that's best for everyone. There is such thing as accidents and some people take all the precautions and one of those guys just seems to hammer its way up the womb! So I can understand the need for them and agre with them early on. I think anything under 12 weeks is acceptable, anything other than that and I think you should have to have the baby.

 

[Napster]

Have to disagree , the choice is always the mothers , end of . The clasping is a reflex action . Untill the infant is away from the mother , i would always say the mother has the final say.

Agree. Medical or not, this is a social issue.

 

[Rayleigh Weir]

Agree. Medical or not, this is a social issue.

As a foster carer seeing the vast numbers of unwanted children that our society drops - I find myself swinging both ways on this one. there are some great kids out there, and some tragic cases that will never belong or fit in. Should these unwanted foetuses be terminated before they've had a chance at life? I certainly don't have the same courage of my convictions that I had as a younger man...

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

I agree on this 100%. Unless there is some medical reason for the abortion I don't believe that it is right to terminate a baby's life when it is old enough to survive there and then.

I think anything under 12 weeks is acceptable, anything other than that and I think you should have to have the baby.

Not sure where you get 12 weeks from? What's the youngest premature baby to have survived... 23 weeks?

I'm firmly in the Pro-choice, rather than the Pro-Life camp. It's a woman's body and it's for her to choose. I would also suggest that 20-weeks and under is a "given" - no embryo delivered up to and including the 20th week has survived, or is capable of survival.

Choosing an upper limit of between 20 and 24 weeks is the tricky one. Personally, I'd give women the vote on it - it would be for them to decide. Be interesting to see how they'd vote in a referendum. Not sure a male-dominated Westminster would be enlightened enough to do such a thing, though...

Matt

 

[osymandus]

Not sure where you get 12 weeks from? What's the youngest premature baby to have survived... 23 weeks?

I'm firmly in the Pro-choice, rather than the Pro-Life camp. It's a woman's body and it's for her to choose. I would also suggest that 20-weeks and under is a "given" - no embryo delivered up to and including the 20th week has survived, or is capable of survival.

Choosing an upper limit of between 20 and 24 weeks is the tricky one. Personally, I'd give women the vote on it - it would be for them to decide. Be interesting to see how they'd vote in a referendum. Not sure a male-dominated Westminster would be enlightened enough to do such a thing, though...

Matt

21 i believe , even then the chances are enourmous, then had it not been for medical science and a lot of luck the baby would have died.

 

[Southend_Lady]

Not sure where you get 12 weeks from? What's the youngest premature baby to have survived... 23 weeks?

I'm firmly in the Pro-choice, rather than the Pro-Life camp. It's a woman's body and it's for her to choose. I would also suggest that 20-weeks and under is a "given" - no embryo delivered up to and including the 20th week has survived, or is capable of survival.

Choosing an upper limit of between 20 and 24 weeks is the tricky one. Personally, I'd give women the vote on it - it would be for them to decide. Be interesting to see how they'd vote in a referendum. Not sure a male-dominated Westminster would be enlightened enough to do such a thing, though...

Matt

Well I say 12 weeks as I think that by that point the foetus isn't formed fully into a baby? (Im no expert on foetus's and don't plan to be in the know for a long time :nope:) but I think even at 20 weeks a baby is fully formed and appears as a baby as opposed to a foetus and it is just a little disturbing to think that a fully formed but tiny baby can be removed from the womb.

I totally agree with you though I do believe that it is the woman's choice and if it is medical, even more so. It's a tough choice I'm sure.

I guess every instance has it's own story and I am sure that every person has their own reasons. What I don't agree with is girls/women that don't take precautions but are then shocked when they fall pregnant and terminate the pregnancy. If you are mature enough to be having sex then you have to take the responsibility if you aren't using contraception. I think too many younger girls or women use a termination as a harsh form of contraception. Girls having 5 or more abortions is not unheard of thesedays.

 

[Winkle]

God this is a tricky one. I can see both sides on this one so I am sitting on the fence but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that question your morals. I remember reading a while a go about a 13 year old girl in America that was raped and left for dead by some pervert. She recovered only to find out that she was pregnant by her attacker. Her mum was deeply religous and would not consent to an abortion so the girl with her parents decided to have the baby. She then found out that she and the had become H.I.V infected a few weeks before giving birth and when the baby was born, it was H.I.V Positive as well. What would you do in that situation, 13/14 years old, raped,being pregnant by someone you hate to death, then being told that you and your childs life expectancy is reduced because some pervert could not control him self? What if this girl was your daughter, what would you do?

 

[osymandus]

God this is a tricky one. I can see both sides on this one so I am sitting on the fence but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that question your morals. I remember reading a while a go about a 13 year old girl in America that was raped and left for dead by some pervert. She recovered only to find out that she was pregnant by her attacker. Her mum was deeply religous and would not consent to an abortion so the girl with her parents decided to have the baby. She then found out that she and the had become H.I.V infected a few weeks before giving birth and when the baby was born, it was H.I.V Positive as well. What would you do in that situation, 13/14 years old, raped,being pregnant by someone you hate to death, then being told that you and your childs life expectancy is reduced because some pervert could not control him self? What if this girl was your daughter, what would you do?

Explain every option you can and try to live through it with your daughter . Thankfully theres always a chance that the HIV will not develop in the baby or even into AIDS (same for the mother). So you live and love

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Explain every option you can and try to live through it with your daughter . Thankfully theres always a chance that the HIV will not develop in the baby or even into AIDS (same for the mother). So you live and love

...and the child grows up carrying the genetic make-up of a father who rapes teenage girls...

It's a tricky one.

Matt

 

[osymandus]

...and the child grows up carrying the genetic make-up of a father who rapes teenage girls...

It's a tricky one.

Matt

Thats potential every single male on the planet (and some females) MTS ;).
We all have that capability , its having the mental discipline to hold it in check

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Thats potential every single male on the planet (and some females) MTS ;).
We all have that capability , its having the mental discipline to hold it in check

Not sure I agree with that at all! I've never had to "keep in check" the potential of raping someone else. It is a thought which is so abhorrent, so anaethema to my being, that it simply doesn't even enter into my conscious nor unconscious minds.

I'd say that was rather different from someone who has actually committed rape of a teenager, wouldn't you?

:stunned:

 

[osymandus]

Not sure I agree with that at all! I've never had to "keep in check" the potential of raping someone else. It is a thought which is so abhorrent, so anaethema to my being, that it simply doesn't even enter into my conscious nor unconscious minds.

I'd say that was rather different from someone who has actually committed rape of a teenager, wouldn't you?

:stunned:

Thats becuase your a disciplined and mentally astute individual. Each and every attacker for instance would have differnet rational and justification.
Your hormones are powerful motivators as is the uncontrolled want of procreating, combined it can make even the most rational of persons do teh most horrific of actions.

 

[BrettieAngell]

What about the girl having to bring the kid up knowing how he/she came into the world?

 

[osymandus]

What about the girl having to bring the kid up knowing how he/she came into the world?

Down entirly to teh individual its not something you can ever legislate for .

 

[BrettieAngell]

Down entirly to teh individual its not something you can ever legislate for .

I wouldn't want to burden my kid with something like that.

 

[Cricko]

Thats becuase your a disciplined and mentally astute individual. Each and every attacker for instance would have differnet rational and justification.
Your hormones are powerful motivators as is the uncontrolled want of procreating, combined it can make even the most rational of persons do teh most horrific of actions.

Even Hitler thought he was right .The fact he made millions of his countrymen believe in him and his ideals ..is somewhat odd, but go's to show there are many sheep but few shepherds with any sense .