Muttiah Muralitharan

[Matt the Shrimp]

You've missed Bell, out of sight out of mind? Bell will be in the Ashes squad ahead of Bopara and Wright. Whether Bopara gets the trip I think depends on how Morgan will fare in the series against Pakistan.

Freudian slip, perhaps! I can't believe we're going to have another winter of torment courtesy of Ian Bell. Flaying the Bangladeshi attack to all corners proves the square root of eff all. He's proved time and again that, when push comes to shove, he's not cut out for the mental rigours of Test cricket.

However, the selectors love him, so there's no doubt he'll be in the side - ahead of Morgan, probably.

As for "Judgey" (aka Robin Smith) - perhaps I loved the ferocity of his cuts...!

Matt

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Thanks, it's something I'm immensely proud of as you can tell....

Rightly so, mate - rightly so!

 

[number11]

I wonder how the likes of Atherton will be viewed in years to come.....nearly ever opposition bowler prized his wicket as much as anyone elses in test cricket, yet his average of 36ish looks weak compared to the current crop, who feast on the absence of poor opening attacks around the world.

It is a great pity though that he played before central contracts where his chronic back problems could have been better looked after, and he was captain in an era of uncertainty and selectoral whim.

Going into this ashes, (shouldnt this thread be moved ;)) it is greatly encouraging that we look to have a settled squad and genuine competition for places. If everyone is fit and does ok against Pakistan, our line up would I think be Strauss, Cook, Trott, KP, Collingwood, Bell, Prior, Swann, Broad, Anderson, Finn.

Morgan or Bopara will go as batting cover. Its a shame Bopora hasnt got the lives Bell has had with the selectors as every time I see him he oozes class rarely seen in this country. Currently though it looks like Morgan is ahead. Kieswetter will probably go as keeper (though maybe Davies), and I would have thought Shazad and Sidebottom (who was hitting 90mph last night) would get the nod over Bresnan.

Rashid is an interesting case. He has been in pretty good form with the ball this season, has an excellent batting average, did ok in the previous twenty twenty world cup, yet the journeyman Tredwell seems to have inexplicably gone above him. If England consider 2 spinners are needed in any game then I hope Rashid goes. He will also make it plausible to play 5 bowlers (3 seamers and 2 spinners) on a turning pitch where we might thinking a 4 man attack with only 2 seamers is a risk.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I would have said KP of two years ago was heading into a Viv Richards league, but he has stalled for 2 years, or at least not kicked on. Hopefully he shows the hunger over the next 4 years to stake his claim for that kind of accolade.

He was injured for approximately half that time, and then was player of the tournament in the 20:20 World Cup (he also topped the IPL averages).

It's the fact that that is considered a slump that marks him out as an all-time great.

We've had a few really classically elegant batsmen in recent years (Gower, Robin Smith and Vaughan jump to mind - the latter one of the most elegant strikers of the ball I've ever had the joy to watch), but none of them threatened to stray into the pantheon of the true greats.

Agree with the assessment that KP has stalled. Hope he kicks on - he clearly has the ego and the ability to be up there amongst the greats.

Most of the current England side is made up of battlers (I'd class all of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Colly, Morgan, Prior and Swann as battlers), rather than classically elegant players - not that I object at all to that. It's those battlers who might yet go on to win stuff. I'm also heartened that, for the first time in ages (ever?) we have genuine competition between Prior and Kieswetter for the wicketkeeper-batsman berth.

What's the line-up looking like for this winter? To me, it looks like the side is lining up as follows - with the selectors having questions to resolve where there are "slashes" between the players:

Cook
Strauss
Trott
KP
Morgan
Collingwood / Bopara / Wright
Prior / Kieswetter (wk)
Swann
Broad / Finn
Finn / Sidearse / Shahzad / Bresnan
Anderson

Incidentally... where, if anywhere, does Adil Rashid fit into all this; and whither poor old Onions? Is that it, for him, in Test cricket?

Matt

Capey doesn't just have the ego, he has the shots. Brand new ones. What shots did Sobers, Bradman, the three Ws etc create? He's done things greats have been unable to do. And he's done it whilst dominating attacks in a manner not really seen since Richards (although Sehwag has followed suit). Appreciate him whilst you can, because in a few years you'll realise how special he was.

FWIW, I'd class Robin Smith as battler and Morgan and Prior (and Bell and Bopara) as elegant. I think Swann and Broad's batting would also come under elegant (at least flaky) rather than battlers.

And I don't consider Kieswetter competition for Prior's test keeping spot. He's cover at best.

Although he couldn't be classed among the all-time greats, I'd have liked to have seen what Atherton would have acheived had he played his cricket in the last decade amongst a competitive England team. All the talk of Tendulker carrying a nations hopes rings true for Atherton in his 90s pomp.

I'd have liked to have seen what Athers would have achieved without back problems.

Freudian slip, perhaps! I can't believe we're going to have another winter of torment courtesy of Ian Bell. Flaying the Bangladeshi attack to all corners proves the square root of eff all. He's proved time and again that, when push comes to shove, he's not cut out for the mental rigours of Test cricket.

However, the selectors love him, so there's no doubt he'll be in the side - ahead of Morgan, probably.

As for "Judgey" (aka Robin Smith) - perhaps I loved the ferocity of his cuts...!

Matt

I'm normally the first to bash Bell and you may well be right to predict a winter of torment, but I think you are being unduly harsh and ignoring his winter in South Africa. He averaged 44 against a far better attack than he'll face this winter.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Capey doesn't just have the ego, he has the shots.

As usual, when it comes to cricket... I agree with you! If you look at my post, it says "ego and ability". All the modern greats have had both. All of Richards, Botham, Warne, Lara, Tendulkar, McGrath have huge egos to match their ability. The last real great I can think of who wasn't an obvious egotist was probably the late and much lamented Malcolm Marshall.

Egotists without the ability? Surprisingly few leap obviously to mind, although Ganguly's name did immediately appear on the tip of my tongue. Never liked or rated him.

KP has buckets of ability, of that there's no doubt. He's in a slight rut by his own atmospherically high standards, but I'm sure he'll work his way out of that.

I suspect both of us are too young to know what shots the Don had in his locker, but he really is the one cricketer who has nothing to prove to anyone - not even to you, Matt!

;)

I'm normally the first to bash Bell and you may well be right to predict a winter of torment, but I think you are being unduly harsh and ignoring his winter in South Africa. He averaged 44 against a far better attack than he'll face this winter.

Perhaps, perhaps. He'll be on the plane anyway, so it's perhaps a moot point. We'll see if his new-found grit sticks with him. Batting a bit further down the order certainly seems to do him no harm. And I have you right on the Prior v. Kieswetter debate. So, we now look like this:

Cook
Strauss
Trott
KP
Collingwood
Bell
Prior
Swann
Anderson

+ 2 from Broad, Finn, Sidearse, Shahzad, Bresnan (with Broad probably ahead of the others)

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

As usual, when it comes to cricket... I agree with you! If you look at my post, it says "ego and ability". All the modern greats have had both. All of Richards, Botham, Warne, Lara, Tendulkar, McGrath have huge egos to match their ability. The last real great I can think of who wasn't an obvious egotist was probably the late and much lamented Malcolm Marshall.

Not sure what your definition of egotist is (and I think you need a touch of arrogance to succeed in top class sport), but I wouldn't have put Tendulkar in that category and (to keep it on track) Murali. Great personality, but definitely a team man.

Egotists without the ability? Surprisingly few leap obviously to mind, although Ganguly's name did immediately appear on the tip of my tongue. Never liked or rated him.

KP has buckets of ability, of that there's no doubt. He's in a slight rut by his own atmospherically high standards, but I'm sure he'll work his way out of that.

I suspect both of us are too young to know what shots the Don had in his locker, but he really is the one cricketer who has nothing to prove to anyone - not even to you, Matt!

I'm not saying the Don has anything to prove, I'm using him as a yardstick. To do something the Don didn't do, is very, very special.

I reckon I've got a fair idea of what shots he had in his locker as a historian of the game. I've spent many a summer listening to Yoda wax lyricallymaarrrvelously on Bradman during rain-breaks, and have read my CLR James and dozens of autobiographies in which he features and visited the Bradman collection at the Adelaide Oval. Cricket's rich literary history lends itself to learning about the greats in a way that football lacks and I've learnt a lot from speaking to contemporaries of the Don, such as Canvey :harry:

So even though video footage of the Don is limited, I think I've a reasonable idea about him.

Perhaps, perhaps. He'll be on the plane anyway, so it's perhaps a moot point. We'll see if his new-found grit sticks with him. Batting a bit further down the order certainly seems to do him no harm. And I have you right on the Prior v. Kieswetter debate. So, we now look like this:

Cook
Strauss
Trott
KP
Collingwood
Bell
Prior
Swann
Anderson

+ 2 from Broad, Finn, Sidearse, Shahzad, Bresnan (with Broad probably ahead of the others)

Broad and Finn are my two first bowlers in the side.

Broad is on the brink of world class whilst Anderson's form is worrying.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Broad and Finn are my two first bowlers in the side.

Broad is on the brink of world class whilst Anderson's form is worrying.

Broad and Swann are my 1st 2 choices, with Finn a close 3rd. Anderson is starting to look a one-trick pony, and that trick isn't working too well. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him left out of the Pakistan series at some stage.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Broad and Swann are my 1st 2 choices, with Finn a close 3rd. Anderson is starting to look a one-trick pony, and that trick isn't working too well. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him left out of the Pakistan series at some stage.

Middlesex played at Uxbridge the other day and I was pleasantly surprised to see Finn bowl for some long spells. At one point on Friday he bowled 16 overs in a row either side of tea and beat the bat plenty of times. Yes it was only a CC2 match, but good to see him getting first class overs under his belt all the same.

:offtopic:

Erm, that Murali, he's great. Seems a nice chap too.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Broad and Swann are my 1st 2 choices, with Finn a close 3rd. Anderson is starting to look a one-trick pony, and that trick isn't working too well. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him left out of the Pakistan series at some stage.

Swann's going to do well to take his wickets at under 40 down under, but despite all that statistical evidence, I'm in a minority on this.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

The one thing that will help Swann Down Under is bounce, spinners need that almost as much as turn...

 

[timeveritt]

From the naked eye it is a throw, however it was then proven that the majority of bowlers flex their arm (including Glenn Mcgrath) who by naked eye appear to have a smooth and perfect action. The two of them are far and above any other spin bowler in the world in this era, the only notable exception being Jim Laker who took 10 in a innings.

Warne has the added bonus of being able to bat (im debating whether to say a bit or not).

Naturally I think most people favour warne due to the greater experience of his bowling (particularly in the UK) where Murali has achieved by maybe it hasn't been emphasised by the media so much. Also being switch hit for by KP probably didnt help much.

Both great bowlers, shame Murali retired so early.

 

[number11]

Swann's going to do well to take his wickets at under 40 down under, but despite all that statistical evidence, I'm in a minority on this.

I predict Swann will do better than Richard ****ing Dawson who was the spinner when I went over to watch the Ashes.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Not sure what your definition of egotist is (and I think you need a touch of arrogance to succeed in top class sport), but I wouldn't have put Tendulkar in that category and (to keep it on track) Murali. Great personality, but definitely a team man.

Ahh... but then (finally getting this back on topic) is Murali in that pantheon? I would have him there, but plenty on this thread might not, I suspect. Tendulkar - not a massive egotist, perhaps, but someone who has a deep-seated understanding and belief in his own exceptional talent - something which, I agree with you, you need at the very top.

I'm not saying the Don has anything to prove, I'm using him as a yardstick. To do something the Don didn't do, is very, very special.

Understood - and agreed. Which autobiogs would you recommend of the man? I've a present to buy for a cricketing nut, so might be a good suggestion!

I've learnt a lot from speaking to contemporaries of the Don, such as Canvey :harry:

Ahh... mmmmarvellous shot, that.

Broad and Finn are my two first bowlers in the side. Broad is on the brink of world class whilst Anderson's form is worrying.

Isn't Finn a bit green to be chucked straight into an Ashes series? Admittedly, it's a wee while since I've seen him in the flesh, but he looked... well... young and, potentially, not thick-skinned enough to deal with the mental rigours of an Ashes Down Under. Then again, I hae ma doots about Jimmy in terms of mental fragility as well.

Oddly, it's why I think Sidearse might be in the reckoning. He's an arrogant swine by all accounts, which sounds pretty much ideal for a day of hard yakka at the SCG...

 

[canveyshrimper]

Matt,

I'd recommend Bradman the Great by B J Wakeley - but there's many available from here. And contrary to YB's assertion sadly I wasn't a contemporary of the Don.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I predict Swann will do better than Richard ****ing Dawson who was the spinner when I went over to watch the Ashes.

LOL, or should that be COL (crying out loud?)

Ahh... but then (finally getting this back on topic) is Murali in that pantheon?

Of course he's in there. 800 wickets at 22.72. That's a better average than Holding, Croft, Bishop, and Walsh; Lillee, Lindwall and Miller (Keith, but that's also true of Dusty); Imran, Waqar and Wasim; Steyn and Pollock (Shaun and Peter); Bedser, Verity and Statham etc

In fact, it's easier to name those above him. Of those who took 200 wickets (and remember Murali took four times than many), only Marshall, Garner, Ambrose, Trueman, McGrath, Donald and Hadlee took their wickets cheaper and he took more than double the number of wickets than most of them.

I would have him there, but plenty on this thread might not, I suspect. Tendulkar - not a massive egotist, perhaps, but someone who has a deep-seated understanding and belief in his own exceptional talent - something which, I agree with you, you need at the very top.



Understood - and agreed. Which autobiogs would you recommend of the man? I've a present to buy for a cricketing nut, so might be a good suggestion!

Not sure if I've read a biography of the Don himself, I was referring more to the numerous second hand autobiographies of other (often random) cricketing figures I've read.

If you want recommendations of good cricket books then I'd recommend looking at:

John Barclay's Life Beyond the Airing Cupboard - a whimsical look at cricket, that endearingly captures all the charm of the county game
Rob Smyth (the Grauniad's OBO guy) - can't remember what it's called, but I went to it's book launch! If you've read the OBO you'll know what to expect
Duncan Hamilton's Larwood or A Last English Summer (haven't read these yet but are on my list to read, he's won the Billy Hill's Sports Book of the Year twice now)
Gideon Haigh's Mystery Spinner - for my money the best cricket writer at the moment

Ahh... mmmmarvellous shot, that.



Isn't Finn a bit green to be chucked straight into an Ashes series? Admittedly, it's a wee while since I've seen him in the flesh, but he looked... well... young and, potentially, not thick-skinned enough to deal with the mental rigours of an Ashes Down Under. Then again, I hae ma doots about Jimmy in terms of mental fragility as well.

Oddly, it's why I think Sidearse might be in the reckoning. He's an arrogant swine by all accounts, which sounds pretty much ideal for a day of hard yakka at the SCG...

Finn looked England's best bowler against Bangladesh in the home series. He's put on pace and appears to have grown up (as a bowler, he's already tall enough!) over the winter. He and Broad have put in the two best bowling performances in the CC this year.

Sideshow was anything but arrogant when I chatted to him in Sri Lanka, but his on-field personna is very different to what he's like off the field when he was the most chatty of the England players, but still very softly-spoken.

 

[Southend Neil]

Well done Murali for getting 800 wickets. A quite amazing feat and a record which will probably stand for the length of our lifetmes.

Of course Warne and Murali are the two greatest spin bowlers ever and we are lucky to have seen them however I would just about favour Warne. He did have the advantage of not having to bowl at Aussie batsmen but I just think he was tactically better and I would favour him more to get a wicket at a vital moment. Also I think certain players, (Fleming) did get after Murali a bit while I rarely saw Warne dominated.

Lara over Tendulkar for me, more runs per match and more likely to play a match winning innings, slightly more exciting too.

Finn looks excellent to me so he must play in Australia, age is irrelevant if your good enough. His pace and bounce will be ideally suited to those conditions.
However the player that has really impressed me is Shahzad. Excellent attitude, quick and more variety than Jimmy and a definite contender for the 3rd seamers spot.

 

[timeveritt]

However the player that has really impressed me is Shahzad. Excellent attitude, quick and more variety than Jimmy and a definite contender for the 3rd seamers spot.

I disagree as I think he is not proven enough yet....his lack of a 5 wicket haul in first class cricket concerns me and whilst he appears to be suitable I don't think he offers anything that we do not already have in the side. Finn on the other hand looks to be a good bowler.

 

[southend4ever]

Chucker!!!

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I disagree as I think he is not proven enough yet....his lack of a 5 wicket haul in first class cricket concerns me and whilst he appears to be suitable I don't think he offers anything that we do not already have in the side. Finn on the other hand looks to be a good bowler.

A threat with the old ball? An ability to extract reverse swing? Extra pace? A skiddy action?

Still unproven, but with those attributes we really need him to come good, because we've been missing a bowler like that for some time.

 

[canveyshrimper]

A threat with the old ball? An ability to extract reverse swing? Extra pace? A skiddy action?

Still unproven, but with those attributes we really need him to come good, because we've been missing a bowler like that for some time.

Since Simon Jones career was virtually ended by a succession of injuries in fact.