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New ground update?

Is it
In some respects not surprising given the saga we've all had to endure to get to this point, but most of the objections raised in this thread are either from a position of ignorance or simply a matter of personal taste (which I imagine has been somewhat clouded by the all-consuming hatred some espouse for Ron).

Firstly, this is absolutely nothing new. For anyone who has been paying attention (and thanks to a few dedicated posters who go through each iteration of the planning docs, and contribute to some v interesting discussions in the Fossets section of the forum), the news of a reduced capacity and flats replacing the hotel was thoroughly discussed back in September of last year.

A capacity of over 16,000 will absolutely be more than sufficient for us in almost every conceivable future scenario. We can, with good new ownership, strong management, and some luck establish ourselves as a L1 club with championship ambitions with the stadium as proposed in these plans. Anything higher than that is a) pretty damn unlikely - honestly go and look at the names of the clubs at the top of L1 right now and tell me which ones you think we ought to be competing with; and b) attendance numbers start to diminish in importance given the obscene TV deals in the Prem and filtering down to the Championship. 16k+ is more than enough.

Secondly, complaints over the phasing are, as far as I can tell, driven by a blind pessimistic presumption that nothing good can ever come of this development (understandable given the tribulations over the years). But things have changed. The training ground has been developed. The club is for sale. The council want their thousands of new homes. This is going to happen now. And the idea that any new owner waiting in the wings to buy us because of our potential is going to be happy to plod along with us in a 3-sided stadium with its main stand and revenue generator missing in perpetuity seems a bit unlikely. Even after phase 1, the 3 stands will give us significantly more revenue streams, fewer overheads and a much more pleasant experience than the current state of Roots Hall.

And please, if you are still talking about us having no revenue streams because the hotel has been dropped, do yourself and everyone else a favour and find some of @C'mon you Shrimpers posts in the stadium section, because he has done the work for you. There are bars, cafes, food outlets, boxes, ballrooms, and space that can be tailored for whatever the new owners have in mind (office space etc.).

In terms of the design of the stadium itself - it looks pretty good to me, but appreciate that is down to personal taste. Safe standing to create a proper home end will be great, and I actually don't mind the flats built into the main stand. It gives a sense of scale to the ground that we could never achieve through seating alone as we'll never need a 40/50k stadium.

Finally, and probably most disappointingly, the frequent complaints in this thread about this being a housing development with a stadium built on, or us being stuck in a 'ghetto' (from posters with a dubious history of talking about ethnicity of our prospective new neighbours). Honestly, get a ****ing grip. We're currently sitting on a former rubbish dump down Vic Avenue, it's hardly the Ritz. Football stadiums should be in amongst housing, it's where up until 20 years ago, they've always been. Give me this over a stadium attached to a drab and dying retail park any day.

Having lived for a few years in the Olympic Village in Stratford, and actually looked at the Residential plans for this development unlike some of the critics, these modern developments really aren't this eyesore people are thinking of. They are generally quite well designed, have cafes/shops on the ground level and multiple green spaces. I genuinely think in 5/10 years time this will be a desirable part of Southend to be in, and with the right ownership we will be able to take advantage of thousands of new prospective fans right on our doorstep.

I know the last few years have been incredibly depressing for all of us, but really please do try to tone down the 'everything is **** and I hate it' stuff around the stadium. Provided the sale of the club goes well, we've got plans in place for a really bright future, and when we eventually get there I do think the vast majority will be delighted with it.
So anyone who objects to the new proposed smaller stadium is ignorant, has a hatred of Ron and has to accept that this proposal is acceptable and it’s just a matter of personal taste.
For the record I don’t hate anyone including Ron. I hope I am not ignorant and my main objection is that I mistakenly expected promises made and plans passed in 2007 would be honoured and not watered down to this extent.
 
Nope. I can't see it.

In all seriousness, It won't be great for those in the East stand. But then again it's no different to now I suppose.
TBH I was more concerned for the players than the fans. The fans can choose to change seats. But a nice sunray into the eyes of the opposition goalie and defenders....that's going to make winning the toss vital.
 
That may well be the case, but stadia are not designed and built based on a business case from historic data - they will be assessed (amongst a plethora of other categories) on future potential.

There is a well documented new-stadium bounce for the majority of Clubs. For every Darlington (which was merely a vanity project of a completely unjustifiable scale), I give you a Reading, Swansea, Rotherham and Doncaster - all Clubs who were fluctuating around the lower leagues with comparable gates to Southend historically, but all of whom have experienced sell out crowds and a steady increase in average attendance with the inception of a new stadium.
This.

Southend should be planning for a bright future with an increasing average attendance.

The increasing local population dictates that some day we may need more than 16k. We were on par with Brighton once, they now see 30k plus.

I think we would peak at about 20k-ish at our very best. Those flats attached to our main stand that weren't a problem before all of a sudden become a huge obstacle to the club's progress.

We really need to know how on earth we can realistically expand/redevelop the main stand with residential properties sitting on top of it. I anticipate it's going to be anything other than an easy and cheap job.
 
More South East corner isn't it, the away section? with our lot either side of them.

Well it was initially, not sure if that's changed now?
Just looking at the plans now.
They certainly do have the north east corner of the north stand but the away section and the one that presumably be used in phase one seems to run to just before the line going from the right hand goal post upwards where there is the League/cup segregation areas with 2 sets of I presume lockable doors.
The away fans have access to 2 concession areas in the first phase and an extra 2 when the north stand is built. There are only 6 disabled spaces for fans and their carer and 1 accessibility WC but this is increased to 21 with an additional 2 accessibility WCs which I suspect is bang on code when the North stand is built.
Call me an optimist but I like the design. Could be bigger but the facilities are fantastic. My dad was very proud of Roots Hall and so should we all be. I got taken as a nipper to an amateur international against Scotland. Kevin Keegan called it the Wembley of the lower divisions. I think we'll be as pleased with Fossets Farm.
BTW is this the first new ground built with some safe standing. I don't know but I'm sure someone has the answer.
 
Just looking at the North stand. The boxes look terrific. You can walk out to your seats, top of the stand. The view will be fantastic. Wonder how much they'll cost. Memo to self must keep on doing the lottery. It's only a matter of time.
 
Hyperbole is not dead. Just had a look when we last had a 16,000 plus crowd. The answer is not very often and you need to go back 60, 70 years to find a regular run of high attendance. I'm sure the statos will be able to help OK the seated Roots Hall cannot take that number but apart from games against premiership clubs in cups I doubt if we'd come near in recent years.
I do think though thinking about the future that the planners could be asked about how easy or not would expansion be.
The season we were in the Championship the club was crying out for extra capacity. That was one even Ron was right about. Oh how our standards have dropped on levels since then.
 
Should, by some miracle, the unthinkable happen, and we end up with a scenario whereby the Club is purchased and the owners favour redeveloping Roots Hall, this is, as I have mentioned on a few occasions, actually possible. Yes, of course, there are limitations, but we are literally rebuilding Fratton Park stand by stand at the moment, and that is arguably more challenging given their future-proofing needs and the historical importance of certain aspects of the structure.
 
That may well be the case, but stadia are not designed and built based on a business case from historic data - they will be assessed (amongst a plethora of other categories) on future potential.

There is a well documented new-stadium bounce for the majority of Clubs. For every Darlington (which was merely a vanity project of a completely unjustifiable scale), I give you a Reading, Swansea, Rotherham and Doncaster - all Clubs who were fluctuating around the lower leagues with comparable gates to Southend historically, but all of whom have experienced sell out crowds and a steady increase in average attendance with the inception of a new stadium.
I absolutely respect your expertise on stadia development, but I was curious about the list of clubs you compare us to there as a warning sign that these plans may be too small...

Reading are in a 24k stadium and are currently pulling in 12k a week whilst in the championship, Swansea have had huge success in recent years and are averaging just around 16,5k in their 21k stadium, and both Rotherham and Doncaster play in stadiums that are smaller than our latest plans, and can't fill those despite having historically successful runs in recent years.

I really don't think any act as a cautionary tale that we need to be aiming higher at 20k+, if anything they suggest that around 16k is about right and would probably sufficient right up to the championship, at which point potential TV money of the prem is probably more of a defining factor.
 
Is it

So anyone who objects to the new proposed smaller stadium is ignorant, has a hatred of Ron and has to accept that this proposal is acceptable and it’s just a matter of personal taste.
For the record I don’t hate anyone including Ron. I hope I am not ignorant and my main objection is that I mistakenly expected promises made and plans passed in 2007 would be honoured and not watered down to this extent.

Well your criticism earlier in the thread started with the line "The new proposed smaller stadium is a disgrace and an insult". So in as much as these proposed plans are not smaller than previously announced back in September, and disgrace and insult are down to personal taste I'd say if the shoe fits...

The plans in 2007 were based on an enormous retail estate that is now obviously untenable. I understand that reducing from 20k+ to 16k can look like a reduction in ambition but in truth the stadium, training ground and housing development really is high end, it's not some pre-fab being built to fob the council/fans off. If you think that we really need to be building a stadium larger than 16k (including the additional cost for such an increase) I'd be v interested to hear your arguments as I can imagine far more future scenarios where 16k is too large for us than too small.
 
When an application is sent to the local planning authority it is somebody’s job to check that it is all present and correct, only after that is it validated and accepted by the Council and then put into the next bit of the process which is the consultation process - both a public consultation exercise (for a minimum of 21 days IIRC) and statutory consultees (such as highways, water authority etc.).
Would fans be able to raise objections during the consultation process?
My personal objection is that the new stadium is shyte. Nothing at all like what was promised, more of an afterthought stuck in the corner of a housing estate. SUFC are once again being royally poked up the jacksy by Ron and his family.
 
the_forgotten_man
If the new owner agrees with you they can come up with the funding for something different/bigger. Plenty of time to do so as currently the 4th side build is not planned until a couple of years after they become the new owner? And the council has previously approved a much bigger 4th side so the planning amendment shouldn't be a major issue.
 
Has anyone been over that way recently? The land between Boots and Laces and Fossets Way (where the new stadium will be) has been completely stripped down and most of the foliage has been removed - could this be a sign that the start of the build is closer than what some believe?
 
Hyperbole is not dead. Just had a look when we last had a 16,000 plus crowd. The answer is not very often and you need to go back 60, 70 years to find a regular run of high attendance. I'm sure the statos will be able to help OK the seated Roots Hall cannot take that number but apart from games against premiership clubs in cups I doubt if we'd come near in recent years.
I do think though thinking about the future that the planners could be asked about how easy or not would expansion be.

Of course we haven’t had a 16,000 crowd for ages. The capacity has been below that for several decades. We have however sold out on several occasions in that timeframe. We also took more than that to Cardiff and Wembley.

A capacity of over 16,000 will absolutely be more than sufficient for us in almost every conceivable future scenario.

It puts a cap on our potential. Yes, it is most likely to be sufficient but it limits our potential (including making us less attractive to any new owner).

My understanding was east in phase 1, extending around the north east corner once the north stand is open. The hope seems to be that away coaches will park on Fossetts Way and most away fans will go around the east side without interacting with home fans around the rest of the ground.

View attachment 25678
Most away fans don’t travel by coach though.
This.

Southend should be planning for a bright future with an increasing average attendance.

The increasing local population dictates that some day we may need more than 16k. We were on par with Brighton once, they now see 30k plus.

I think we would peak at about 20k-ish at our very best. Those flats attached to our main stand that weren't a problem before all of a sudden become a huge obstacle to the club's progress.

We really need to know how on earth we can realistically expand/redevelop the main stand with residential properties sitting on top of it. I anticipate it's going to be anything other than an easy and cheap job.

Agree other than it would be a stand other than the main stand you’d be looking to redevelop to increase capacity. You don’t make your bigger stand even bigger, you make the smaller side the same size or bigger.

I absolutely respect your expertise on stadia development, but I was curious about the list of clubs you compare us to there as a warning sign that these plans may be too small...

Reading are in a 24k stadium and are currently pulling in 12k a week whilst in the championship, Swansea have had huge success in recent years and are averaging just around 16,5k in their 21k stadium, and both Rotherham and Doncaster play in stadiums that are smaller than our latest plans, and can't fill those despite having historically successful runs in recent years.

I really don't think any act as a cautionary tale that we need to be aiming higher at 20k+, if anything they suggest that around 16k is about right and would probably sufficient right up to the championship, at which point potential TV money of the prem is probably more of a defining factor.
Rotherham population 60,000
Doncaster population 110,000
Southend population 180,000

Add in Rochford, Benfleet, Canvey etc and it’s twice that and bigger than the population of Swansea/Port Talbot/Neath or Reading and Bracknell.

I’m not suggesting that we need a 24,000 seater stadium now but we need the potential to increase. It’s shortsighted not to build with that in mind.
 
Agree other than it would be a stand other than the main stand you’d be looking to redevelop to increase capacity. You don’t make your bigger stand even bigger, you make the smaller side the same size or bigger.
A fair counterpoint and something I actually thought about while writing my comment.

But being the main and most important stand, even maintenance/redevelopment of this stand could be complicated by the housing sitting on top of it.

Not to mention the other situation, how will the landlords access the exterior of the flats to maintain the block properly for their residents?

It smacks of property developer and council desperation to put flats anywhere someone is willing to allow/facilitate it.
 
Presumably if the north stand is almost impossible to expand given the flats, and the west and east are by extension a bit tricky due to the effect of raising the roof on the flats, expanding the south would be the best bet? Outside of the main stand the structure looks reasonably lightweight, all steel beams and concrete. You could stick on few extra rows at the back or add on another tier à la Cardiff, for example.

By all means it would be a lot easier if potential expansion were built into the plans now - something the likes of Brentford (also 17,000 seater) and even our good friends up the A12 have managed (one of those more likely to need it soon than the other...)
 
Of course we haven’t had a 16,000 crowd for ages. The capacity has been below that for several decades. We have however sold out on several occasions in that timeframe. We also took more than that to Cardiff and Wembley.



It puts a cap on our potential. Yes, it is most likely to be sufficient but it limits our potential (including making us less attractive to any new owner).


Most away fans don’t travel by coach though.


Agree other than it would be a stand other than the main stand you’d be looking to redevelop to increase capacity. You don’t make your bigger stand even bigger, you make the smaller side the same size or bigger.


Rotherham population 60,000
Doncaster population 110,000
Southend population 180,000

Add in Rochford, Benfleet, Canvey etc and it’s twice that and bigger than the population of Swansea/Port Talbot/Neath or Reading and Bracknell.

I’m not suggesting that we need a 24,000 seater stadium now but we need the potential to increase. It’s shortsighted not to build with that in mind.
Spot on. We're still pulling in 5-6k per week at home despite playing the equivalent of Dog and Duck FC with all 12 of their away fans. We're in a ramshackle stadium where you can find fungi in the kahzi, all in the midst of a financial/ownership crisis. The potential of the club is off the charts if it's run well and we start to progress back up the leagues. Failure to foresee and plan for this is would be foolish.
 
The fact everyone is overlooking is that this a just a load of fanciful thinking... and nice drawings .....

The planning permission is half real ...

BUT

the main commercial driver behind this - Ron Martin has gone bust ..

so how it all comes out in the end is a mangle of future intangibles -

and I cannot see how anyone can predict if or what we get in the end .. maybe the whole project will get delayed for years or maybe not..

who knows ? no-one does..
 
I said it back in the 60s and i will say it know ,the potential for this club with the right owner is massive ,it has so much going for it, if people cannot see this then they walking about with there eyes closed. A successful club will pull supporters who reside in and around Southend yet go to watch those London clubs in the premiership, to save a lot of hard earnt and watch Southend to begin with. .With decent training facilities we would be able to entice some excellent juniors to our club as well as senior players with undoubted talent ,we have a great catchment area for talent spotting Nice city to live in Essex Riviera.
give us a decent owner seriously this club could go places. Given an owner with deep pockets and a shrewd brain ,he could also find plenty of other opportunities in Southend and neighbouring boroughs also..
 
The increasing local population dictates that some day we may need more than 16k. We were on par with Brighton once, they now see 30k plus.

Except Brighton has 100k more people, a university with the population of 20k students on the stadiums door step.
 
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