londonblue
Topgun Pilot
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Fair enough, but do you at least accept that we need to it for financial stability?[b said:
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Not everyone loves the stadium
- Thread starter shrimper_sam
- Start date
J
The Chameleon
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
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- 7,576
will it give us financial stability though?[b said:
All i can see, is that we are millions in debt with a property developer for an owner and are going to have a quater filled stadium week in week out.. with us still paying for it's develoment..
londonblue
Topgun Pilot
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- Feb 18, 2004
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Depends on the way it is built surely? For example, if you were to talk about Northampton I would agree with you. The ground is open, soul-less and has absolutely no atmosphere because it is impossible to make any real noise.[b said:
Then there's the new modern design like the Liberty that is an enclosed bowl. The noise stays in the stadium and the atmosphere is superb. You can't tell me that you weren't impressed with that, assuming you were there of course? The only thing it lacked was colour (there were a lot of grey concrete areas), but that is easily rectified.
Personally I was impressed with the Walkers Stadium, especially the view and noise. I fail to see how you can accuse it of lacking atmosphere.
londonblue
Topgun Pilot
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See, that is exactly the point. It won't matter (from a financial point of view) if the ground is a quarter full because the new ground would incorporate other money making opportunities.[b said:
More to the point, you're confusing two issues, so let's rephrase. Do you accept it is necessary IF it would lead to financial stability?
Xàbia Shrimper
Co-founder of ShrimperZone
I can't see your argument about the property developer; if Ron Martin was threatening to turn Roots Hall into housing without a mere hint of a new stadium then I would be with you. But he hasn't. Over the past six or seven years he has had a clear plan to move Southend United out of Roots Hall - where the club cannot sustain itself - and move it to a development within the borough (as much as could be hoped) with the ability to support itself. Yes, he may have had half-an-eye on the Roots Hall plot but why not? That is his job; if he can supply the club with a sustainable new future then he can have the plot with my blessing.[b said:
In all honesty, I think you need to look at the proposal again: aside from almost 14,000 sqm of retail space, there is a conference centre, a hotel, residential units, restaurants and bars; none of these are offered at Roots Hall. All of these have the potential to earn Southend United a bit of cash outside of normal football activities. Martin has already stated that the cost of the development will come from the enabling development as well as the sale of Roots Hall and the development of the training ground as a retail area. Therefore there should be no continuing cost for the football club after the completition of the project; we won't "still be paying for its development".
As for the quarter-filled stadium? Well, just a few short years ago, Roots Hall was barely a quarter-filled. Attendances will always be linked with success and the new development has the potential to provide the club with a very decent fund of money with which to improve the playing potential of the club, as suggested by Ron Martin at the beginning of last week. Surely this is good for the club, no?
Turkishshrimper
Guest
spot on sir
simply_blues
Coach
probably nearer to 400,000 if the 'illegals' are taken into account[b said:
Al
C'mon you Blues
Manager
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- 1,145
[b said:
C'mon you Blues
Manager
- Joined
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I think the the letter in the Echo will be seen for what it was a rather petty spiteful pile of crap. I think letters in favour to the council should stress the bigger picture. This is not just a stadium, as Mike says it's a hotel shops and will along with the B&Q encourage other development on Fossetts farm which can only benefit Southend. The High Street won't be at risk after the recent tart up including the roofing of the Victoria Plaza. And the big one for me is the complete regeneration at nil cost to the council of one of the tattiest areas in the town namely the Roots Hall site.
I for one can't wait to get out of Roots Hall. Yes I'm emotionally attached to it and it was a wonderful achievement by Sid Broomfield and the Supporters Club to raise the money for it and it will never be forgotten. It's there in the annals. But it's outdated and actually pretty souless apart from our memories. Bring on the brave new world.
I for one can't wait to get out of Roots Hall. Yes I'm emotionally attached to it and it was a wonderful achievement by Sid Broomfield and the Supporters Club to raise the money for it and it will never be forgotten. It's there in the annals. But it's outdated and actually pretty souless apart from our memories. Bring on the brave new world.
One thing to remember is that whilst new grounds may feel souless they are better designed and able to create a better atmosphere.
Roots hall may have "character" (I think its a dump to be honest), but any noise generated normally gets lost. The north bank for example always sounds really loud, yet most of the sound is kept within the stand.
New grounds are designed for acoustics and the bowl design and the new acoustic roofs will hopefully amplify the sound and could mean the new ground ends up with more atmosphere and "soul" than RH.
Admittedly we could get relegated find 8,000 people in there but is that any worse than not buidling the stadium getting relegated and having 4000 in RH ?
I cant wait for the new stadium, decent seats, decent views, its going to be fantastic.
The club has shown recently it has potential to get bigger and the only way to do so is to move.
Jeez, we stay at Roots Hall and Col U will be bigger than us soon....
Roots hall may have "character" (I think its a dump to be honest), but any noise generated normally gets lost. The north bank for example always sounds really loud, yet most of the sound is kept within the stand.
New grounds are designed for acoustics and the bowl design and the new acoustic roofs will hopefully amplify the sound and could mean the new ground ends up with more atmosphere and "soul" than RH.
Admittedly we could get relegated find 8,000 people in there but is that any worse than not buidling the stadium getting relegated and having 4000 in RH ?
I cant wait for the new stadium, decent seats, decent views, its going to be fantastic.
The club has shown recently it has potential to get bigger and the only way to do so is to move.
Jeez, we stay at Roots Hall and Col U will be bigger than us soon....
sufcintheprem
This is a modified caption
I have a lot of sympathy with the arguments to stay at Roots Hall. In our league two promotion season, I probably enjoyed the away days more than the home ones. Cheltenham, Macclesfield, Cambridge and Shrewsbury were probably three of the 'worst' grounds but three of my best experiences from that season. I'm not going to pretend picking up seven points wouldn't have helped. Still, these stadiums had notable character and that is the one thing that has to be maintained. I would dearly love us to be able to whack another ten thousand seats somewhere round Roots Hall (six tier South stand anyone?) and carry on playing in the place I've always known us to play at. Perhaps as good an indication of the modern requirements of football as any was the renovation of the away section at Cheltenham. For those who aren't aware, this has been developed from a dozen or so uncovered steps in to a very listless seated stand in a similar vein to Northampton.
Unfortunately, the reality of having the most lucrative top division in the world feeds down through the leagues as Premiership nearly men demand Premiership salaries to be coaxed away from their safe, well-paid reserve positions. Most non-footballing businesses pay relative to their business means. Unfortunately, football clubs, unless they take a strong stance or recruit from down the ladder, face a pay structure almost defined by the pay at the top clubs. More unfortunately, one top club in particular has decided that profitable existence isn't necessary when the expenditure is a drop in the ocean of the owner's fortune. If they operate unprofitably and pay wages that soar above traditional revenue streams, in a few years, the effects ripple down as other clubs have to try and compete in order to attract and keep their best players. Anyone know why the salary cap hasn't been extended to the Premiership yet? Call me cynical but I expect that Premier League chiefs are well aware of losing the appeal of oil millions as opposed to trying to prevent another Ipswich/Leeds scenario. Anyway, in relevance to Southend, this means that if Southend are to offer anything approaching competitive wages in this league, they can't rely on the money from 10,000 matchgoers.
I heard in League Two from an excellent source (although, foolishly, I have forgotten the exact figure), that we needed to average around 5500 fans to break even (by rough calculation about 1.6m in costs and revenues). Ignoring the fact that we would be foolish to expect such an attendance if we weren't pushing for realistic promotion, we also have a substantial amount of debt that is presumably subject to some sort of interest. If we wanted to pay off our debt in say, ten years, we would have to pay upwards of half a million off each year. I believe this is about the amount we made in the promotion/LDV final season which was probably as good as we can get at Roots Hall.
The new stadium would not only allow us more bums on seats, it would also allow considerable revenue from non-football business as well as vastly reduced costs. I recall form my stadium tour a few years back that the cost of accomodating each match day was one of the biggest reasons for the high level of break even. Every pound of cost reductions is a pound towards paying off debts or buying new players. This financial rationale isn't something that the club want to do to buy players, make bigger profits or even 'empire build' but something that we can not risk not doing.
Personally, I feel that as long as we build a stadium with character and some level of unique design to set it apart from other stadiums, it will develop character over time.
As for the arguments offered by the writer of the letter, they are very lightweight and seem to amount to little more than the typical local objection to any sort of development. It's fair enough to be upset when something that you have no active interest is to be built next to you because of the knock on effect but if, theoretically, we could build it somewhere a long way away, we would still move the training ground. If we moved the training ground, how long do residents honestly think the land would remain unoccupied? B&Q's develpment next door has shown that the council are willing to develop the land in the better interests in the land and, personally, I would expect something resembling a large retail park to be developed there anyhow. A development of this nature would, seemingly, present the same evils that Mr Stringfellow has highlighted but, perhaps, with a more consistent flow of increased traffic on the road.
The arguments he makes are all fairly unimpressive. He complains about parking. Instead of complaining about parking, why not request the council increases the presence of parking attendants around the road with clear signs indicating a zero-tolerance approach to parking infringements? Why not suggest an opportunity to Cecil Jones to open up their on-site parking to generate more revenue for the school. Would Garons' parking even be too far?
He mentions that the road is overloaded but the development involving a stadium in the development would, I presume, significantly increase traffic on match days. The council, hopefully, are not so foolish as to rely on a road system that can not accomodate the capacity of 22,000. If anything, the building of the stadium would raise the council's response to improving traffic flow in the area. If they improve the roads to handle matchday traffic, the local residents will beenift from much improved access for the 13 days of 14 that Southend aren't playing. This is all ignoring the way that public transport to the stadium has been emphasised in every report on the stadium I have read.
As for the quip about 'local chavs' having 'somewhere to hang out', I suggest that the local chavs are better served hanging around a retail park than a residential area if, and a big if, it is even a significant problem anyhow.
I'm starting to think that this might be the letter I send to relevant interested parties.
Also quite funny is how the original thread reads....
You want us to go down and sell Freddy and you are prepared to write to the Echo to try and make it happen?
Unfortunately, the reality of having the most lucrative top division in the world feeds down through the leagues as Premiership nearly men demand Premiership salaries to be coaxed away from their safe, well-paid reserve positions. Most non-footballing businesses pay relative to their business means. Unfortunately, football clubs, unless they take a strong stance or recruit from down the ladder, face a pay structure almost defined by the pay at the top clubs. More unfortunately, one top club in particular has decided that profitable existence isn't necessary when the expenditure is a drop in the ocean of the owner's fortune. If they operate unprofitably and pay wages that soar above traditional revenue streams, in a few years, the effects ripple down as other clubs have to try and compete in order to attract and keep their best players. Anyone know why the salary cap hasn't been extended to the Premiership yet? Call me cynical but I expect that Premier League chiefs are well aware of losing the appeal of oil millions as opposed to trying to prevent another Ipswich/Leeds scenario. Anyway, in relevance to Southend, this means that if Southend are to offer anything approaching competitive wages in this league, they can't rely on the money from 10,000 matchgoers.
I heard in League Two from an excellent source (although, foolishly, I have forgotten the exact figure), that we needed to average around 5500 fans to break even (by rough calculation about 1.6m in costs and revenues). Ignoring the fact that we would be foolish to expect such an attendance if we weren't pushing for realistic promotion, we also have a substantial amount of debt that is presumably subject to some sort of interest. If we wanted to pay off our debt in say, ten years, we would have to pay upwards of half a million off each year. I believe this is about the amount we made in the promotion/LDV final season which was probably as good as we can get at Roots Hall.
The new stadium would not only allow us more bums on seats, it would also allow considerable revenue from non-football business as well as vastly reduced costs. I recall form my stadium tour a few years back that the cost of accomodating each match day was one of the biggest reasons for the high level of break even. Every pound of cost reductions is a pound towards paying off debts or buying new players. This financial rationale isn't something that the club want to do to buy players, make bigger profits or even 'empire build' but something that we can not risk not doing.
Personally, I feel that as long as we build a stadium with character and some level of unique design to set it apart from other stadiums, it will develop character over time.
As for the arguments offered by the writer of the letter, they are very lightweight and seem to amount to little more than the typical local objection to any sort of development. It's fair enough to be upset when something that you have no active interest is to be built next to you because of the knock on effect but if, theoretically, we could build it somewhere a long way away, we would still move the training ground. If we moved the training ground, how long do residents honestly think the land would remain unoccupied? B&Q's develpment next door has shown that the council are willing to develop the land in the better interests in the land and, personally, I would expect something resembling a large retail park to be developed there anyhow. A development of this nature would, seemingly, present the same evils that Mr Stringfellow has highlighted but, perhaps, with a more consistent flow of increased traffic on the road.
The arguments he makes are all fairly unimpressive. He complains about parking. Instead of complaining about parking, why not request the council increases the presence of parking attendants around the road with clear signs indicating a zero-tolerance approach to parking infringements? Why not suggest an opportunity to Cecil Jones to open up their on-site parking to generate more revenue for the school. Would Garons' parking even be too far?
He mentions that the road is overloaded but the development involving a stadium in the development would, I presume, significantly increase traffic on match days. The council, hopefully, are not so foolish as to rely on a road system that can not accomodate the capacity of 22,000. If anything, the building of the stadium would raise the council's response to improving traffic flow in the area. If they improve the roads to handle matchday traffic, the local residents will beenift from much improved access for the 13 days of 14 that Southend aren't playing. This is all ignoring the way that public transport to the stadium has been emphasised in every report on the stadium I have read.
As for the quip about 'local chavs' having 'somewhere to hang out', I suggest that the local chavs are better served hanging around a retail park than a residential area if, and a big if, it is even a significant problem anyhow.
I'm starting to think that this might be the letter I send to relevant interested parties.
Also quite funny is how the original thread reads....
[b said:
You want us to go down and sell Freddy and you are prepared to write to the Echo to try and make it happen?
sufcintheprem
This is a modified caption
I've been writing that since Sunday. Anything happened in the world since?
KrustyTheKray
President
Blimey!
Would everyone on here be slagging Roots Hall off if the new ground wasn't in the pipeline?
It makes me sick to read of the comments on here about RH being a dump and the roughest part of Southend. Get real and get a life!
Roots Hall is a superb ground, and always will be!
I'd love us to stay there.
I really can't see this new ground happening!
The cost will exceed £20M IMHO.
If we get relegated this season, the crowds will probably drop off again, and we'd be back to the days of 4,000 on a cold tuesday night. 4,000 in a 22,000 capacity stadium would just look odd!
I think we need a team capable of staying and competing in the CCC. I haven't seen this yet, other than the odd game here or there. This needs to come first before a new bigger ground arrives.
Do we really need another retail park in Essex?
I know RH cannot be developed, of which this saddens me. And a new ground is inevitable. But will SUFC fall deeper into debt with the cost of this project, especially if we get relegated this season?
Would everyone on here be slagging Roots Hall off if the new ground wasn't in the pipeline?
It makes me sick to read of the comments on here about RH being a dump and the roughest part of Southend. Get real and get a life!
Roots Hall is a superb ground, and always will be!
I'd love us to stay there.
I really can't see this new ground happening!
The cost will exceed £20M IMHO.
If we get relegated this season, the crowds will probably drop off again, and we'd be back to the days of 4,000 on a cold tuesday night. 4,000 in a 22,000 capacity stadium would just look odd!
I think we need a team capable of staying and competing in the CCC. I haven't seen this yet, other than the odd game here or there. This needs to come first before a new bigger ground arrives.
Do we really need another retail park in Essex?
I know RH cannot be developed, of which this saddens me. And a new ground is inevitable. But will SUFC fall deeper into debt with the cost of this project, especially if we get relegated this season?
shrimper_sam
Manager
It shall cost more then 20M as it has been said it will cost 25M...Tony i have to agree with you,people shouldn't be slagging Roots Hall off calling it a dump if you don't like going there, then don't. What will happen say worst comes to the worst and we lose the Planning. We will have to be there for alot longer then 2 years one would feel.[b said:Quote[/b] (TonyTheKray @ Oct. 10 2006,11:02)]Blimey!
Would everyone on here be slagging Roots Hall off if the new ground wasn't in the pipeline?
It makes me sick to read of the comments on here about RH being a dump and the roughest part of Southend. Get real and get a life!
Roots Hall is a superb ground, and always will be!
I'd love us to stay there.
I really can't see this new ground happening!
The cost will exceed £20M IMHO.
If we get relegated this season, the crowds will probably drop off again, and we'd be back to the days of 4,000 on a cold tuesday night. 4,000 in a 22,000 capacity stadium would just look odd!
I think we need a team capable of staying and competing in the CCC. I haven't seen this yet, other than the odd game here or there. This needs to come first before a new bigger ground arrives.
Do we really need another retail park in Essex?
I know RH cannot be developed, of which this saddens me. And a new ground is inevitable. But will SUFC fall deeper into debt with the cost of this project, especially if we get relegated this season?
On a lighter note i don't believe the planning will be lost
All the best
Angell Delight
Life President
Phil Stringfellow = C&%t
Bielzibubz
President
My sisters dog got it's knackers lopped off.
North Korea has ****ed Bush off big time (shame)
My HUGE bean bag arrived the other day (and very nice it is to)
BT sent me ANOTHER HomeHub......(that's three now)
That's about it really
*edit* Bloody quote thingy didn't work
Groyne Strain
Manager
Hand on heart, given the choice of a football club or 11 people on a pitch in the employment of just another money-making enterprise, I would choose the former.[b said:
I genuinely believe that with the move to Fossetts Farm, we as supporters have a battle to keep the heart and soul of the club. The football, and the supporters that make the club, have to endure over and above the pursuit of revenue and profit.
But then,I'm speaking as someone who helps out with coaching at youth level and who's son plays the game for the fun of it, so Southend United perhaps isn't as much a priority in my life as others.
sufcintheprem
This is a modified caption
I know it's hard to believe that I missed something out but I'm pretty sure that Ron expects the project to be completely self funding in a short time frame.
The notion that we have to stump up £25m probably funded by some crippling debt is unfair because (again my understanding) the project can be separated entirely from club accounts.
The notion that we have to stump up £25m probably funded by some crippling debt is unfair because (again my understanding) the project can be separated entirely from club accounts.
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