Pietersen gone?

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Seems to be the case. Nothing like trying to keep your house in order...and the ECB certainly dont do that!

Yep, ****-ups and breweries come to mind

 

[number11]

Yep, ****-ups and breweries come to mind

And with the AShes coming up....Foot and shooting themselves also spring to mind!

For 2005 it really felt like 2 years of preparation had gone into that series....for this one its going to be make it up as we go along!

 

[SUFC Forever]

Bet Ponting and the Aussies are laughing their heads off about this eh?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Problem with Strauss is he is not a starter for the one day side. We're gonna have another Vaughan situation here if thats the case.

Don't see that as a problem. I'd like to see the test and one-day teams take on more distinct identities anyway if the ICC/ECB aren't going to do anything about fixture congestion and player burnout.

Whats caused all this!?

Seems to have come out the blue a bit!

KP wants to run England his way. Mediocrity Moores wants to run it his way. KP doesn't rate Moores and if something is to be done before the Ashes, it needs to be done now.

Out of interest what do people think Englands best XI is?

I'll stick my k0ck on the block first and go with

Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Harmison
Sidebottom
Panesar

Those pushing for spots

Key, Bopara, Shah, Anderson, Swann.

Vaughan I think will need to score some runs on the county circuit again before he will get a look in.

Sideshow has declared himself fit and then withdraw with injury three times since he last actually played for England. Even when he was fit, his bowling wasn't all that for the last 6 months as he lacked the control that made him so dangerous against the mighty Kiwis and WIndies. I'd have Anderson ahead of him.

I'd also be praying that with his mind clear of captaincy and some time in the nets, MP Vaughan can recover some form. England need a more dynamic bat in the top 3 and Bell has only 1 ton in 25 tests against top 5 teams and hasn't performed in the number 3 spot.

And with the AShes coming up....Foot and shooting themselves also spring to mind!

For 2005 it really felt like 2 years of preparation had gone into that series....for this one its going to be make it up as we go along!

Something had to be done, and it is better that it happens in early January than late February or April/May.

 

[number11]

Something had to be done, and it is better that it happens in early January than late February or April/May.

Thats the thing though...they dont appear to have done anything yet and the captain and most important player has resigned.

Will be interesting how this all pans out, but the saving grace is that we have 6 matches against the W.Indies to sort things out.

 

[SUFC Forever]

Only the ECB could shoot itself in both feet like this. If he does not want to skipper England then bugger off to the IPL. He is a world class player but we will survive without him and should not pander to his massive ego.

Moores to me has not done much wrong. Why should Vaughan walk straight back in the team? Shah or Bopara more than deserve their chance over Vaughan and the whole "jobs for the boys" thing leaves a very sour taste, a la that pathetic Stanford fiasco. Never been so pleased to see an "England" team lose ever. Why were they even called England when it was not even an official tournament?

Pietersen came out of the England tour to India well, taking the team back but how much of that was to pander to the Indian authorities who now run the game?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Only the ECB could shoot itself in both feet like this. If he does not want to skipper England then bugger off to the IPL. He is a world class player but we will survive without him and should not pander to his massive ego.

Moores to me has not done much wrong. Why should Vaughan walk straight back in the team? Shah or Bopara more than deserve their chance over Vaughan and the whole "jobs for the boys" thing leaves a very sour taste, a la that pathetic Stanford fiasco. Never been so pleased to see an "England" team lose ever. Why were they even called England when it was not even an official tournament?

Pietersen came out of the England tour to India well, taking the team back but how much of that was to pander to the Indian authorities who now run the game?

Capey does want to skipper England, that is what this is all about. He wants to be the main man and that wasn't happening. When he accepted the job he said he wanted to do it his way.

I'm not sure about Moores doing not much wrong, he didn't do much right. Under him England didn't win a meaningful test.

 

[number11]

Only the ECB could shoot itself in both feet like this. If he does not want to skipper England then bugger off to the IPL. He is a world class player but we will survive without him and should not pander to his massive ego.

Moores to me has not done much wrong. Why should Vaughan walk straight back in the team? Shah or Bopara more than deserve their chance over Vaughan and the whole "jobs for the boys" thing leaves a very sour taste, a la that pathetic Stanford fiasco. Never been so pleased to see an "England" team lose ever. Why were they even called England when it was not even an official tournament?

Pietersen came out of the England tour to India well, taking the team back but how much of that was to pander to the Indian authorities who now run the game?

Id have to disagree on that. In the 7 years before he took over I think we had only lost one major summer series, to the Aussies in 2001 when our batmen's fingers were snapping like poppadoms (I know we would have lost anyway to one of the best units ever). That period encompassed series wins on the subcontinent, South Africa and a drwn series away to India. Since then we have beaten the W.Indies and New Zealand, but no one else, and have lost our last two major home series. No one seems to have improved technically under him in the same way Fletcher made our batsmen better at spin, and as for selection, for every qualified success (Sidebottom / Prior) there is a diasaster (Pattinson / Ambrose). Ive always been amazed at how the mediocrity and poor results under Moores has been allowed to contine.

Be interesting now whether KP feels he can continue to motivate himself playing for England or whether he is willing to be a pariah and throw his lot in with the IPL.

 

[number11]

Capey does want to skipper England, that is what this is all about. He wants to be the main man and that wasn't happening. When he accepted the job he said he wanted to do it his way.

I'm not sure about Moores doing not much wrong, he didn't do much right. Under him England didn't win a meaningful test.

That's why I was cricitical of the ECB....if KP still wants to do it then he should and within reason the ECB should be appeasing him at the expense of 'Cricket Coaching badges' Moores.

Maybe once both have gone they can build bridges and pursuade KP to reconsider...

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

The only major danger I can see if both have resigned is losing KP to the IPL, which YB alluded to. This could be his get-out clause to say, ' I want to play the full 6 weeks of the IPL, and if you want to select me for the World Twenty20 and the Ashes after that, then that's up to you'. Pietersen is not going to be concerned with losing the captaincy per se as, although some of his rhetoric has suggested that he's proud of his position, I don't think that it's the be-all and end-all for him.

The ECB cannot allow KP to just ride rough-shod over Englosh cricket, demanding who the coach is and what the team do. The captaincy position is a vital position to hold, and we have been fortunate in the likes of Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Hussain and Vaughan recently to have men of integrity (though the first three certainly flirted with more risque moments). KP, as an individual, probably doesn't fit the mould, even if he impressed many by getting the entire squad to return to India at the end of last year.

Moores was a fantastic county coach with Sussex, and did a decent job with the National Academy. It was clear that the ECB, and Hugh Morris in particular, wanted to promote him as he was the first to go through the ECB's coaching badges. However, for whatever reason, results haven't gone his way, and if he has gone as well, then I'm sure we can find someone else with good enough credentials to lead us into the Ashes.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Moores was a fantastic county coach with Sussex, and did a decent job with the National Academy.

Not too sure about that. Having Mushtaq Ahmed in your side taking 80+ wickets every year, doesn't make you a great coach.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The only major danger I can see if both have resigned is losing KP to the IPL, which YB alluded to. This could be his get-out clause to say, ' I want to play the full 6 weeks of the IPL, and if you want to select me for the World Twenty20 and the Ashes after that, then that's up to you'. Pietersen is not going to be concerned with losing the captaincy per se as, although some of his rhetoric has suggested that he's proud of his position, I don't think that it's the be-all and end-all for him.

The ECB cannot allow KP to just ride rough-shod over Englosh cricket, demanding who the coach is and what the team do. The captaincy position is a vital position to hold, and we have been fortunate in the likes of Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Hussain and Vaughan recently to have men of integrity (though the first three certainly flirted with more risque moments). KP, as an individual, probably doesn't fit the mould, even if he impressed many by getting the entire squad to return to India at the end of last year.

Moores was a fantastic county coach with Sussex, and did a decent job with the National Academy. It was clear that the ECB, and Hugh Morris in particular, wanted to promote him as he was the first to go through the ECB's coaching badges. However, for whatever reason, results haven't gone his way, and if he has gone as well, then I'm sure we can find someone else with good enough credentials to lead us into the Ashes.

I'm not overly concerned with integrity, I'm concerned with winning. Capey is a winner. What is important is that Capey isn't going to accept mediocrity, unfortunately the ECB is.

Moores did a very good job with Sussex, but then Sussex seem to have also done a good job without him. Moores' lack of impact on the international scene makes me wonder how much of that Sussex success was down to Adams (spit) and Mushtaq Ahmed.

 

[SUFC Forever]

Pietersen has only been England captain for 3 Tests. What makes him think he can come in and call the shots straight away? The man is a superb player but his ego holds no bounds.

Atherton had to put up with Illingworth dragging him down for ages but got on with it.

I think Moores comes out of this with more credit than Pietersen to be honest.

 

[number11]

Pietersen has only been England captain for 3 Tests. What makes him think he can come in and call the shots straight away? The man is a superb player but his ego holds no bounds.

Atherton had to put up with Illingworth dragging him down for ages but got on with it.

I think Moores comes out of this with more credit than Pietersen to be honest.

He put up with it, but it was hardly a sucessful era.

As YB said, success impresses me more than medocrity but playing it by the book.....

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Pietersen has only been England captain for 3 Tests. What makes him think he can come in and call the shots straight away? The man is a superb player but his ego holds no bounds.

Atherton had to put up with Illingworth dragging him down for ages but got on with it.

I think Moores comes out of this with more credit than Pietersen to be honest.

Because that is the basis he took the job on.

Surely you aren't proposing the Illingworth-Atherton relationship as a model of how to run a side?

 

[SUFC Forever]

Because that is the basis he took the job on.

Surely you aren't proposing the Illingworth-Atherton relationship as a model of how to run a side?

Hardly. Illingworth dragged the team down by selecting total nonentities on a whim to play Test cricket. Atherton was always up against it while he was in charge, feeling he owed Illingworth for saving his job during the "dirt in pocket"fiasco.

Moores had a hard act to follow in Fletcher. Fletcher brought success and even if he did not court the media too well, under him England brought home the Ashes and played together like properly run team for the first time in years.

Seems from Jason Gallian's comments on Sky that Pietersen did the same thing at Notts to a coach he felt was far from his equal - Mike Newell. Great players do not always make great coaches or managers and to just not respect somebody for no reason other than they do not have your ability or that he has not represented his country at Test level actually shows the mark of the man.

What has Pietersen achieved as skipper? Won his 1st Test in charge and made a ton. Lost 5 odi's in a row in India and also the 2 Tests.

It is not as a captain we will miss him, Strauss will more than adequately fill the gap in Test cricket (who will do the job in one day stuff who knows?) but if he really throws his toys out of the pram and refuses to play as a player (highly unlikely as his endorcements etc are tied to his international participation) we certainly shall. That is entirely up to him however, I remember when the Packer era took all the top players away from international cricket - the game survived then and it will survive with or without Pietersen come what may.

 

[undercovershrimper]

well kp resigns and moores has been sacked. Strauss to captain on the tour of the west indies (no mention of whether this is for test and one dayers or just tests, so we have to presume its for both). Andy Flower will in all likelyhood be coach for the tour. In the long run, expect Graham Ford (Kent) to come in as Coach, with Strauss the test captain and god knows who as the one day and Twenty20 captain.

IMHO im over the moon that Moores has gone, never liked the guy, and our results since he has been made coach have been awful. My feeling is his confrontational style of management and lack of international experience haven't sat well within the england camp.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

Not too sure about that. Having Mushtaq Ahmed in your side taking 80+ wickets every year, doesn't make you a great coach.

So if a team does well it's down to the players (Sussex) and if it does badly, it's down to the coach (England)?

I think Moores is a very high standard county coach (maybe fantastic was over-egging it!), but things haven't gone right with England. That said, as I stated in my initial post, I'm sure that we can find another coach with good enough credentials to replace him at international level - the early front-runner for the Windies tour is Andy Flower, and who is to say that with his career as a leading batsman in world cricket, and more importantly in terms of being a good coach, his leadership of a mediocre international team (albeit with the best group of players they ever had in Zimbabwe), will not transfer into the coaching arena?

I didn't have a lot of time for Moores as England coach, and it seems that some of the players didn't either. That doesn't mean to say that the treatment that he got from Pietersen, and possibly other senior players without KP's forcible attitude, was right.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

I'm not overly concerned with integrity, I'm concerned with winning. Capey is a winner. What is important is that Capey isn't going to accept mediocrity, unfortunately the ECB is...

There are certain standards that you have to meet as an England captain. To overtly come out and undermine the coach and throw your toys out of the pram at the first sign of trouble doesn't meet those standards, neither does it make KP a leader, nor does it prove that he desperately wants to win for the team. Instead, it smacks of a spoilt brat that isn't going to try and work things out for the benefit of his team-mates.

Moores going, as I have said in other posts, is not neccessarily a bad thing for England, and I'm sure that the standing that Pietersen gained after leading the team back to India could have proved favourable with the ECB in getting him out.

The difficulty here's the time period involved - I suspect that KP was not willing to wait until after the Windies series as changes thereafter would undermine the Ashes in the summer. Unfortunately, the shambles that has ensued has turned out to be equally problematic.

I agree that KP is a winner - after this episode, I am even less convinced that he is a team winner rather than an individual one, and I am able not sure about his overall motives with regards to the IPL, for which this conviently opens the door to him.

 

[SUFC Forever]

There are certain standards that you have to meet as an England captain. To overtly come out and undermine the coach and throw your toys out of the pram at the first sign of trouble doesn't meet those standards, neither does it make KP a leader, nor does it prove that he desperately wants to win for the team. Instead, it smacks of a spoilt brat that isn't going to try and work things out for the benefit of his team-mates.

Moores going, as I have said in other posts, is not neccessarily a bad thing for England, and I'm sure that the standing that Pietersen gained after leading the team back to India could have proved favourable with the ECB in getting him out.

The difficulty here's the time period involved - I suspect that KP was not willing to wait until after the Windies series as changes thereafter would undermine the Ashes in the summer. Unfortunately, the shambles that has ensued has turned out to be equally problematic.

I agree that KP is a winner - after this episode, I am even less convinced that he is a team winner rather than an individual one, and I am able not sure about his overall motives with regards to the IPL, for which this conviently opens the door to him.

Totally agreed. Good to see that somebody sees it how it is.

Graham Ford? Don't see his name featuring in too many Test match records? He will be treated the same as Moores by this bunch of overpaid, egotistical prima donnas. Okay he had some success with South Africa but as far as some are concerned, if you didn't play at the highest level then you are not allowed to coach there either.

Moores had 18 months in the job and seemingly all the crap he had to put up with from senior players who should have been supporting him, never allowed him to grow into what is a very hard job, following as I said earlier a very successful coach in Duncan Fletcher.

No doubt (if he has not been forbidden from doing so by the terms of his departure) a book will follow one day soon and the truth will out then.

I think Pietresen has behaved disgracefully and should never be allowed anywhere near the England captaincy again even when the smoke from all this has cleared.