Winding Up Order Wednesday

[NZamba Legend]

If Ron pays off HMRC I might go and sit on his wall in my new home shirt and give him the thumbs up as his motor crunches up his gravel driveway.

It's this kind of class that separates the true fan from the new brand of keyboard warrior that the club has attracted. Why not take a carrier bag from the offy and turn it into a real celebration?

 

[BedfordShrimper]

I’m not actually joking, if this debt is paid on Wednesday I will cry tears of relief. I was welling up just reading in this thread it MAY actually happen at last !

 

[Murkey_Mouse]

I have it from a very good source that the debt will be paid this time round.

Let hope you are right @Rootshallbloke ??It’s two days and counting as we badly need new players in or it’s non league football for us in 2021/22 season!

 

[thenobster]

At least we don’t have a great team playing well if we do go under

 

[thenobster]

I have it from a very good source that the debt will be paid this time round.

Until next time

 

[camden shrimper]

I can't see it not being paid off, the metaphorical equivalent of throwing the towel in not to surely!

 

[bluesfansince1952]

Would not a sizeable chunk of our tax money be VAT on gate receipts? As our last gate income would have been the Brizzle Rovers game am I right in assuming our tax bill will be much reduced from what we might expect in normal circumstances? Perhaps this could be clarified by someone with their ear to the ground or closer to the action than me.
One of the reasons I was delighted with the appointment of MM as manager was logic suggested his services could only have been secured if he had the realistic expectation of the embargo soon being lifted. There also must have been many cheaper options available to Ron as manager so from the club's point of view investing in MM makes no sense at all if we are not soon to be embargo free.
However, as a lifelong supporter I know the dangers of using words like 'logic' or 'common sense' in the same sentence as 'Southend United', and, lack of action on the debt clearing front is making me distinctly nervous.
While Ron has a history of teasing HMRC paying the debt and taking whatever action is necessary to lift the embargo cannot be delayed from a footballing point of view. Does anyone believe we can survive by continuing the season relying on the youth cohort backed up by a few experienced players most of whom have injury issues?
A failure to take whatever action is necessary to clear the embargo within the next two weeks will likely push the club beyond the point of no return.

 

[Colblue]

Not sure what savings are there from income tax and vat being deferred during this Covid crisis, but deferred doesn’t mean written off, it just means they are there to bite you on the backside further down the line. All of a sudden when they all get stacked on top of any current liabilities at that time it could be a debt deeper than Ron’s pockets

 

[Leo210856]

As was stated certain debts post March are put on hold but other historical debts are due and payable.
The currentWinding Up Order ( WUO )was issued in November and that was fast on the tails of the one cleared in October.
HMRC would be quantifying debts as the accumulated.
It’s pretty safe to assume that sums due November - March weren’t settleed as they became due so on top of the sums included in the proceedings there is at least 5-6 months PAYE ( not including sums delayed) and potentially 2 quarters VAT which would have included VAt due on gate receipts.
The trouble Southend have is that their past compliance is terrible meaning that although they will be allowed to delay payment of some of the accumulated debts its highly highly unlikely that there would be any agreement in respect of any sums payable from November to March.
For what it’s worth my take on it is that even if this WUO is cleared HMRC are going to keep coming and unfortunately the delay in enforcement, relegation and loss of income will mean the next and in all likelihood inevitable WUO will be the break point that is unless there is an injection of significant capital.

 

[Leo210856]

Not sure what savings are there from income tax and vat being deferred during this Covid crisis, but deferred doesn’t mean written off, it just means they are there to bite you on the backside further down the line. All of a sudden when they all get stacked on top of any current liabilities at that time it could be a debt deeper than Ron’s pockets

The delayed debts will be smaller due to reduced paye and of course VAT due the fact that employees would have been put on furlough and of course no gate receipts etc but it’s as you say at some point all debts will be due and payable.

 

[Blue Yonder]

What I find unfathomable is why if plans to raise funds and pay this off have been in place for several weeks (as several zoners have indicated over that time) why leave it to the last minute like this and make life so difficult. I can’t help feeling in the background we’re scrambling for our life and picking up every scrap we can to get this covered and that it is going to the wire.

 

[Leo210856]

All clubs are required to keep their HMRC debts up to date, or have in place an agreement that debts are being settled in accordance with an agreed payment schedule (TTP)
I personally am far from sure that even settling this WUO would release the embargo

 

[amsemp]

I can’t explain the relief I’ll feel if the debt gets paid and the embargo is lifted tomorrow. Especially if we get some fresh faces in for Saturday this week.

For all our faults, you can’t ever question the loyalty of our fans and I feel like we deserve this so much after everything over the last couple of seasons. My new season optimism was zapped following the Harrogate game, so some positive news would be so welcome.

Everything crossed ??

 

[OldBlueLady]

Personally, I don't think there's any question it won't be/have been paid,

 

[londonblue]

What I find unfathomable is why if plans to raise funds and pay this off have been in place for several weeks (as several zoners have indicated over that time) why leave it to the last minute like this and make life so difficult. I can’t help feeling in the background we’re scrambling for our life and picking up every scrap we can to get this covered and that it is going to the wire.

My understanding is that any embargo isn't lifted until after the court case regardless of when the money is paid. For that reason (assuming you have the money) you might as well pay it at the last moment and earn a bit of interest for yourself rather than let it sit in HMRC's accounts earning them interest.

 

[Leo210856]

My understanding is that any embargo isn't lifted until after the court case regardless of when the money is paid. For that reason (assuming you have the money) you might as well pay it at the last moment and earn a bit of interest for yourself rather than let it sit in HMRC's accounts earning them interest.

Don’t think that’s correct.

For instance, and yes I know they now play in the National League but that leagues rules are the same as the EFL but Macclesfield had their latest WOU hearing on 9 September & they already signed ex league players prior to that hearing.

Irrespective I very much doubt that money to settle and debt would be held in an interest bearing account

 

[kentblues]

A lot of assumptions on here without any particular facts. And no doubt I am about to commit the same fault.

We do know there is a broad brush facility to defer some tax payments from a given date - defer doesn't equal write off and of course in that respect we are in the same boat as all other clubs. BTW we probably didn't defer 2nd and 3rd qtr VAT as likely we would have a reclaim (no income).

By now the Nov-March payments will either have been added to the HMRC debt payable or paid. Surely the former. And so the club will need to have committed to pay off all debts up to those that might be legally deferred and do so?

I see no prospect of HMRC having sat on 7-12 months old Nov-March debt without adding it to the amount owed?

So without knowing the facts we can say if the case is dismissed it is at least highly like the combined debt is paid.

The difference between us and the other clubs when the deferment train hits is, hopefully, by then we will underwritten by a £300m development project - there will be a number of clubs probably going to the wall before us, the comfort being the assumption that this won't be allowed to happen. However, this will require money from EFL. Prem, Gov. And three more inept organisations to rely on you will struggle to find...

 

[Barry.C]

I remember the Rons first encounter with HMRC, In those days he occasionally talked to us. He was not a happy little Ronnie and it seemed like he determined from that first Court action to treat it as a bitter personal fight, ego led, to destruction. From that moment on he seemed fixated on sticking a corner flag in the rear end of HMRC at every available opportunity. With the possible help of a few lawyers the battle commenced , and we got dragged through the courts is it 17 times,? as Ron made sure he frustrated the law or should I say norm, of paying tax on time, like the rest of us, and to eke out every penny, whilst prepared to bring our cherished club into constant disrepute and leave a stain on every fan

 

[Leo210856]

Kent

I know that other creditors can ask to have their debts linked to a winding up order I am far from sure that HMRC would have been in a position to increase their claim.If they were in a position to do so wouldn’t they have taken up such options in the past ?

The last two VAT quarters would no doubt be vastly reduced but monies paid out by the EFL and indeed the PL money that was advanced would all be paid gross.

In a way you are right about the potential £300 million redevelopment deal but that deal is based on land that isn’t actually owned by Southend Utd and that’s always a worry

 

[kentblues]

I know that other creditors can ask to have their debts linked to a winding up order I am far from sure that HMRC would have been in a position to increase their claim.If they were in a position to do so wouldn’t they have taken up such options in the past ?

After 7-12 months they would by now have issued another action and it would have caught up with the first one by now. Rather than be fighting two actions concurrently I am sure the adjournments would have been reached on the understanding these debts would also be cleared. I would imagine thats how it would handled.

The last two VAT quarters would no doubt be vastly reduced but monies paid out by the EFL and indeed the PL money that was advanced would all be paid gross.

That being the payments the EFL clung onto and refused to pass on?

In a way you are right about the potential £300 million redevelopment deal but that deal is based on land that isn’t actually owned by Southend Utd and that’s always a worry

It is except the club moving and the building of the stadium are enabling parts of the agreements reached between SBC and Homes England. To change that would result in months more delays as would any question of or change in status or ownership of the club (and I imagine reaching the point when we would all be out protesting)

As I say- I don't know for sure and don't pretend so, but I would be surprised if the above were not substantially the case.