Labour and the General Election

[Neil_F]

The points on this are - some of the top 1% are paying high rates of tax and some are avoiding it so it makes sense to make sure the top 1% are treated fairly compared to the others in that category.

The word "avoidance" has last all meaning. Whilst originally a common law concept, HMRC have an entire manual on domicile and Parliament has enacted endless law on it. It exists in its current form to attract non-UK national investors to the UK and is absolutely not avoidance.

Some people pretend to live on other countries - that is a loophole that needs closing.

Who does and how do they do this?

The other point is that saying that the top 1% pay 25% of taxes gives you a pretty good indication of how unbalance income is in this country and that the 99% would be right to question the validity of that situation.

this makes no sense. First of all if it is income earned "in this country" it will be taxable regardless of domicile. Second a more equal income distribution would reduce the tax yield due to the impact of marginal tax rates. Third it is the whole point of a progressive tax system.

i personally don't understand the obsession with relative inequality, particularly between the top 1% and! say, the top 50%. I would prioritise alleviating absolute poverty and increasing the consumption power of the lowest 25% of earners personally.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Dear Neil
1 the non dom status is being used by various people who are not foreign investors which is where the issue lies.
2. Within the limits of the law some people will adjust their schedules in order for it to seem that the UK is not where they live. There are various ways around this. I pay PAYE so tax for me holds a level of interest that is no more than equal to the various other aspects of politics - for you tax holds a much bigger interest so I'll probably just leave you to read up on that as you will take more from it than me in terms of the interest in generates.
3. That was not in relation to non-Dom status specifically it was in reply to someone else's post. If you read the two together it will make sense to you. In short the original post was saying the top 1% are paying 25% of the overall tax burden - so assuming that figure was correct I concluded the top 1% must be receiving a substantial about of the overall income. Nothing clever, basic common sense.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Am I alone in hearing this "non-Dom" term used for the first time recently and thinking it had some kind of reference to 50 Shades of Grey? :blush:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Am I alone in hearing this "non-Dom" term used for the first time recently and thinking it had some kind of reference to 50 Shades of Grey? :blush:

That was ran-dom....

 

[Neil_F]

Dear Neil
1 the non dom status is being used by various people who are not foreign investors which is where the issue lies.

Who are these mysterious people?

2. Within the limits of the law some people will adjust their schedules in order for it to seem that the UK is not where they live.

This is a complete myth. You're talking about tax residence here rather than domicile and it is very difficult to game a 90 page UK residence rule and the Double Tax Treaty network. Some people work in the UK or have business interests in the UK and are genuinely non-resident (they may still pay UK tax on their UK workdays) Pretending to be resident someone else is incredibly difficult.

for you tax holds a much bigger interest so I'll probably just leave you to read up on that as you will take more from it than me in terms of the interest in generates.

Because why have an informed opinion when you could just guess.

In short the original post was saying the top 1% are paying 25% of the overall tax burden - so assuming that figure was correct I concluded the top 1% must be receiving a substantial about of the overall income

I presume you meant average rather than overall income? Being in the top 1% kicks in at annual earnings of about £80k, which is 3 times mean earnings. I wouldn't describe this as substantially more. There are a 0.01% that do though. I don't see the problem. Total income is not fixed so it makes no difference to me if someone earns £5m a year. If I want to earn more I can but it is a trade off with time available for other things, stress and risk.

There is another piece here about incentives, wealth creation and jobs but maybe for another day.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Perfect front page news in the Mail today. Billed as if it's some terrible slur but essentially the news can be translated as 'Ed Milliband had girlfiends before getting married'. Anyone coming across this will see it as the least effective cheap shot yet, and that if he was pretty good on the pull maybe he is not an oddball after all.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Who are these mysterious people?




This is a complete myth. You're talking about tax residence here rather than domicile and it is very difficult to game a 90 page UK residence rule and the Double Tax Treaty network. Some people work in the UK or have business interests in the UK and are genuinely non-resident (they may still pay UK tax on their UK workdays) Pretending to be resident someone else is incredibly difficult.




Because why have an informed opinion when you could just guess.




I presume you meant average rather than overall income? Being in the top 1% kicks in at annual earnings of about £80k, which is 3 times mean earnings. I wouldn't describe this as substantially more. There are a 0.01% that do though. I don't see the problem. Total income is not fixed so it makes no difference to me if someone earns £5m a year. If I want to earn more I can but it is a trade off with time available for other things, stress and risk.

There is another piece here about incentives, wealth creation and jobs but maybe for another day.

1 Stop playing with me - how would I known the names of the non-doms either genuine or shonky? Surprisingly I can not name the people effected by the bedroom tax either. Don't be silly.
2. If it is a myth then I shouldn't worry about it. Foreigners who are here temporarily will fall under the replacement legislation - and if there is no one cheating the system then all this will do is give us peace of mind on that. No harm done.
3. I just don't want to use my time finding information for you to win your love and respect because I feel that at the end of that process you still won't love and respect me.
4. I was replying to a particular post (as I have already said) so you are wasting your time over analysing mine as it is based on figures in the post I was replying to. I took their figures on face value because I was aware I was just wasting a bit of time on a football forum rather than heading up a governmental tax enquiry. The concept still works - if 1% really are paying 25% of the taxes then they are benefiting from shed loads of income and the other 99% of the population should probably be given incentives on wealth and job creation too.

 

[superblue24]

1 Stop playing with me - how would I known the names of the non-doms either genuine or shonky? Surprisingly I can not name the people effected by the bedroom tax either. Don't be silly.
2. If it is a myth then I shouldn't worry about it. Foreigners who are here temporarily will fall under the replacement legislation - and if there is no one cheating the system then all this will do is give us peace of mind on that. No harm done.
3. I just don't want to use my time finding information for you to win your love and respect because I feel that at the end of that process you still won't love and respect me.
4. I was replying to a particular post (as I have already said) so you are wasting your time over analysing mine as it is based on figures in the post I was replying to. I took their figures on face value because I was aware I was just wasting a bit of time on a football forum rather than heading up a governmental tax enquiry. The concept still works - if 1% really are paying 25% of the taxes then they are benefiting from shed loads of income and the other 99% of the population should probably be given incentives on wealth and job creation too.

Great answers. Straight from the book of "politics for 12 year olds". If you don't understand the question just call the person a silly billy, right?. Did you say you canvass for labour? Based on your responses I think Miliband would be better off if you stay at home.

I guess you were brought up being told to always have the last word as opposed to not saying anything if you had nothing to say.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Great answers. Straight from the book of "politics for 12 year olds". If you don't understand the question just call the person a silly billy, right?. Did you say you canvass for labour? Based on your responses I think Miliband would be better off if you stay at home.

I guess you were brought up being told to always have the last word as opposed to not saying anything if you had nothing to say.

Oh this is good timing actually, we could do with your input. I actually said Neil was being silly with one particular question but if you disagree then you can answer it for us. Please name the non-doms

 

[Sowfend Not Sarfend]

For a bit of light relief on this thread why don't we name some Doms. I'll go first:
Dom Cork

 

[Benfleet A1]

Perfect front page news in the Mail today. Billed as if it's some terrible slur but essentially the news can be translated as 'Ed Milliband had girlfiends before getting married'. Anyone coming across this will see it as the least effective cheap shot yet, and that if he was pretty good on the pull maybe he is not an oddball after all.

Oh, he's a oddball alright, but maybe hung like a donkey. Good for him if he is.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Oh this is good timing actually, we could do with your input. I actually said Neil was being silly with one particular question but if you disagree then you can answer it for us. Please name the non-doms

Was one named Bill?

 

[callan]

Wasn't Lord Ashcroft a Nom Dom?

 

[superblue24]

Roman Abramovich
Lord Ashcroft
Raj Bagri, (gave up his seat in the House of Lords in 2010 to retain his non-dom status following the passing of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010)
Arpad Busson
James Caan
Richard Caring
Sudhir Choudhrie
Sir Ronald Cohen
Baroness Lydia Dunn (gave up her seat in the House of Lords in 2010 to retain her non-dom status following the passing of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010.)
Norman Foster (gave up seat in House of Lords in 2010 to keep non-dom status.)
Sir Philip Green
Ben Goldsmith
Stuart Gulliver
Lewis Hamilton
Jonathan Harmsworth, 4th Viscount Rothermere
Lord Laidlaw
Lakshmi Mittal
Sir Christopher Ondaatje
Sir Anwar Pervez
David Potter
Sigrid Rausing
Doug Richard

I found this article on The Economist rather interesting : http://www.economist.com/news/leade...x-break-rich-and-mobile-it-right-policy-wrong

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

Perfect front page news in the Mail today. Billed as if it's some terrible slur but essentially the news can be translated as 'Ed Milliband had girlfiends before getting married'. Anyone coming across this will see it as the least effective cheap shot yet, and that if he was pretty good on the pull maybe he is not an oddball after all.

I was amazed by the fact Ed Miliband had managed to get a girlfriend. I imagine he used to stand in the corner at parties with a cup of lemonade in his hand.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Wasn't Lord Ashcroft a Nom Dom?

He was.And likely to be so again (since he's now stood down from the Lords).

 

[Neil_F]

He was.And likely to be so again (since he's now stood down from the Lords).

You don't stop being non-domiciled; you can cease to claim the remittance basis of taxation though.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

He was.And likely to be so again (since he's now stood down from the Lords).

You don't stop being non-domiciled; you can cease to claim the remittance basis of taxation though.

I'm sure you're right.Until Labour get elected that is.:smiles:

IIRC,Ashcroft was planning to return abroad after the G/E,though.

 

[Neil_F]

I'm sure you're right.Until Labour get elected that is

£100 says domicile will still be in place in 2020, even with a Labour minority coalition.

 

[Benfleet A1]

£100 says domicile will still be in place in 2020, even with a Labour minority coalition.

That's quite a bet. What makes you so sure? Genuine question.