Scottish Independence

[Uncle Leo]

I agree with this but FPTP has entrenched the two party system which makes it almost impossible to have someone for the public to vote for who hasn't been completely indoctrinated by the System.

I was a huge fan of FPTP when I was younger - my dissertation at Uni was in support of it - but I do now think that we need to move beyond it as one of a number of changes in order to restore democracy to the UK.

Ha, ha, snap! :smile:

Like you, I've moved away from it somewhat over the years. There is a better way, but my mind changes pretty regularly on what that should be.

 

[Jam_Man]

Really? In the 1980 by-election Teddy Taylor was returned by 430 votes. 431 of the 34,000 that didn't vote could have made a difference. Even in the 1992 election where his majority was 13,111, nearly 15,000 didn't vote. Every vote can and does count.

For me PR has its advantages, in that it's fairer to each party. However, I don't for one second believe it will lead to an increase in the turnout. After all, if people don't vote because "they're all the same" then nothing will have changed for them as it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to them who is elected.

And to me the pros are massively outweighed by the cons. The main con being that fringe parties can end up with a disproportional amount of power.

I am in the Southend West side posse, not the East (Splitters). Its never been that close here (although 97 was only a few thousand in it but if it couldnt change in the new labour Blair year it never will)

 

[londonblue]

I am in the Southend West side posse, not the East (Splitters). Its never been that close here (although 97 was only a few thousand in it but if it couldnt change in the new labour Blair year it never will)

It doesn't matter where you are, the point is that the margin of victory is less than the number of people that didn't vote:

Southend West:

2010: Majority: 7,270. Didn't vote: 23,377
2005: Majority: 8,959. Didn't vote: 33,793
2001: Majority: 7,941. Didn't vote: 27,065

I think you get the picture!

 

[Uncle Leo]

Salmond is standing doon....

 

[RHB]

Salmond is standing doon....

The honourable thing to do I guess, but I am a bit surprised. I doubt Cameron would have done the same if the outcome had been 'Yes'.

 

[Uncle Leo]

The honourable thing to do I guess, but I am a bit surprised. I doubt Cameron would have done the same if the outcome had been 'Yes'.

We'll never know. He ought to have - being the leader of the Conservative and UNIONIST Party and all that - but I imagine he'd have clung on.

 

[superblue24]

The honourable thing to do I guess, but I am a bit surprised. I doubt Cameron would have done the same if the outcome had been 'Yes'.

Why should he have done? Losing Scotland would have been the best thing since sliced bread for the Tories.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Why should he have done? Losing Scotland would have been the best thing since sliced bread for the Tories.

Seeing as Cameron went up there and campaigned against it, I don't think so.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Why should he have done? Losing Scotland would have been the best thing since sliced bread for the Tories.

From a narrow party political point of view, yes. But he had previously said that he would fight for the Union with 'every fibre of his being'. He'd have been under enormous if we'd lost Scotland on his watch.

 

[MK Shrimper]

From a narrow party political point of view, yes. But he had previously said that he would fight for the Union with 'every fibre of his being'. He'd have been under enormous if we'd lost Scotland on his watch.

Eric Pickles :stunned:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Salmond is standing doon....

A man of principle.Rare in modern politics.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Eric Pickles :stunned:

Doh :smile::smile:

 

[superblue24]

Seeing as Cameron went up there and campaigned against it, I don't think so.

Smoke and Mirrors, the cornerstone of all politics.

 

[Jam_Man]

It doesn't matter where you are, the point is that the margin of victory is less than the number of people that didn't vote:

Southend West:

2010: Majority: 7,270. Didn't vote: 23,377
2005: Majority: 8,959. Didn't vote: 33,793
2001: Majority: 7,941. Didn't vote: 27,065

I think you get the picture!

Yes, but that only means anything if all the voters were supporters of one party, in reality they would be proportioned in the same way those that voted would be.

Voting in a referendum counts for something, voting in Southend West in the current system means nothing.

Maybe the fall out of the Scotland vote will change that system and make people in landslide areas have more reason to vote.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

A man of principle.Rare in modern politics.

LOL at that being because of principle. Obviously he leaped before he was pushed, and it was a done deal in his party a while ago.

 

[RHB]

Yes, but that only means anything if all the voters were supporters of one party, in reality they would be proportioned in the same way those that voted would be.

Voting in a referendum counts for something, voting in Southend West in the current system means nothing.

Maybe the fall out of the Scotland vote will change that system and make people in landslide areas have more reason to vote.

Although this is off topic, I've always felt that voting in General elections should be mandatory as the vote is a fundamental right in our democracy. The alternative is apathy which appears to be the case at the moment.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Although this is off topic, I've always felt that voting in General elections should be mandatory as the vote is a fundamental right in our democracy. The alternative is apathy which appears to be the case at the moment.

I believe it is your fundamental right to abstain if you don't feel that any of the parties adequately reflect your values and beliefs. Mandatory voting within the current party system will only further empower the left of centre PC consensus.

 

[RHB]

I believe it is your fundamental right to abstain if you don't feel that any of the parties adequately reflect your values and beliefs. Mandatory voting within the current party system will only further empower the left of centre PC consensus.

Tell me more, I don't understand the logic.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Tell me more, I don't understand the logic.

Is there really any discernible difference between Tory, Labour and Lib-Dem? Will any of them take a truly radical approach to immigration, education, law and order, welfare spending? UKIP have gently resisted the consensus and are regarded by the 'respectable' media and some dullards who post here as the second coming of the Third Reich. Any of their representatives who have wandered too far from the PC reservation have been disowned and condemned.

The same situation exists here in the USA, where Republicans and Democrats contend for the same middle ground buffeted by an absurdly left-wing media and education system. At least the Tea Party movement voices some dissent but as with UKIP, is condemned for failing to toe the same self-destructive line. I have no interest in putting my mark next to a candidate who will perpetuate the decline of either nation and feed the wolves of socialism, multiculturalism and moral equivalence.

 

[RHB]

Is there really any discernible difference between Tory, Labour and Lib-Dem? Will any of them take a truly radical approach to immigration, education, law and order, welfare spending? UKIP have gently resisted the consensus and are regarded by the 'respectable' media and some dullards who post here as the second coming of the Third Reich. Any of their representatives who have wandered too far from the PC reservation have been disowned and condemned.

The same situation exists here in the USA, where Republicans and Democrats contend for the same middle ground buffeted by an absurdly left-wing media and education system. At least the Tea Party movement voices some dissent but as with UKIP, is condemned for failing to toe the same self-destructive line. I have no interest in putting my mark next to a candidate who will perpetuate the decline of either nation and feed the wolves of socialism, multiculturalism and moral equivalence.

I probably now need to digest your response for a bit to understand it better. I did ask and you answered, so thanks.