Today's incident on SportBible

[rigsby]

Surely we don't believe mobile phones are the real drama here, do we?

Shock horror - people in their 20's who live their lives on social media are suddenly finding out first hand the dangers of doing something slightly dodgy when every man and a dog has a camera and posts said result on... yep, social media!

It's obvious that it will be picked up. Cameras are everywhere.

I absolutely abhor violence, especially football related. But some of the comments on here... please guys, come on.

I don't want to be involved in anything unsavoury at a game so guess what? I put myself well away from any area likely to become a flashpoint so I can watch the game in peace.

I would never have dreamed of taking my young kids to a "lively" area of the ground, no matter how good the atmosphere might be.

Is it disgusting behaviour? Hardly. I dare say the Colchester yobs were goading and coin throwing, but when they started attacking the stewards that should NOT have been the signal for people to take matters into their own hands. It seems to be that people citing this as a valid reason are only really looking to excuse the violence and for some people, they don't need much of an excuse, do they? The stewards and security personnel are aware of risks, they aren't conscripted, it is their choice as they are paid and I would imagine insured accordingly.

I and any other middle aged football fan will have seen far worse in the past but this isn't really the point; the truth is that football violence has never really gone away. It has just moved - generally - to outside the stadium.

For some teenage boys and men, some form of violence is part of their psyche and it almost becomes a craving that needs to be fulfilled. It's no good giving excuses about goading and egging on... both sides were looking for it and some found it. Unsurprising to me. Yes, it spiced it up, I've not seen one bloke try and take on a stand before but - something I haven't actually seen mentioned on here - I wondered at the time what would have happened if a couple of them had grabbed his coat or legs and dragged him over the wall and into the North Bank. They would, in all probability, have killed him.

So how would we sit with that? His fault for being a knob, or their fault for dragging him in?

Also in all of this, we do actually come back to another reason why "Safe standing" isn't actually all that safe at all, as it is much harder to have a ruck with seats in the way.

Another poster likened it in a way to child abuse - it isn't, but I do know what he means. Violence is violence. If you can't keep your cool against a stranger whose main crime appears to be to support a team wearing a different shirt (I've never been able to understand that to be honest), then what chance of keeping your cool against someone testing you to the limits, either a partner in a difficult relationship or a troubled, hormonal teenager?

It shows a complete lack of discipline and is essentially an accident waiting to happen. People who are trained in combat - boxers, cage fighters, army personnel, those who learn martial arts - also get taught the discipline that goes with it. You generally won't find them lashing out at people unless they are attacked first, and then it is only in self defence. Exactly how it should be, in my opinion.

But that's the way it is and always has been. Boys will be boys etc.

Your sounding like a hypocrite to me. You abhor violence especially football related, but expect our stewards to except a kicking because they get £26.50 and are insured....unbelievable.

 

[Voice of Reason]

I've been reading this thread on and off since Saturday and thought about posting something, but fbm's excellently summarised everything I could've said, and then some. Just move his post to the top of the page and we can call it a day.

Spot on let's move on and let the authorities sort it

 

[AndyT]

Surely we don't believe mobile phones are the real drama here, do we?

Mobile Phones aren't too blame and in many ways are a huge asset to solving crime, but footage is a dangerous thing when journalists wants to tell one side of the story!

 

[AndyT]

I've not seen one bloke try and take on a stand before

Blimey, I have! ..

Seriously, though, Fbm makes some good and valid points, though I wouldn't hold the post up as representative of all the views on here.

Think this is an open, frank, honest and very interesting thread.

 

[gpd]

The pure notion of this pacifist outlook is bonkers. Some acts of extreme violence are born out of self defense.



Agreed. In an ideal utopian society maybe. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we live in.



Great point regarding wars. The fact that you're writing this in the English language, demonstrates how wrong you're ideology is.



That ship sailed long ago. When was the last time you ventured out into a town or high street late in a Friday or Saturday night? If you're shocked & appalled at what happened at The Hall, I'd love to see your reaction to how some people carry on after closing time.



So with the idea that there are plenty of lunatics about, who don't have what it takes to live in a civilised society, surely adopting a 100% pacifist mentality is dangerous to yourself & your family? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's your prerogative, if hats what works for you, then fair play. You're morally, a better person than me.

But because I, and I'm betting the majority on this one, wouldn't hesitate to use extreme force to defend ourselves, or our loved ones, that doesn't make us bad people, who're making the world a less civilised place.



But you're misinforming many, that being a pacifist is the only/correct way to live. When it's simply impossible, due to the naturally aggressive nature of human beings.

Ok...I find myself with some time, so I hope this will help. I'll work through your comments..hope that's ok.

1) Yes...pacifism is a notion...but its not a bad one is it? Not wanting to see people injuring each other or killing each other. Surely that cant be a bad desire, can it? Is it achievable? That's another story -and human nature actually works against us on that one where we react and retaliate etc and not just out of self-defence, but unbridled hatred and aggression, and the inability to deal with opposition or provocation. Some of the attitudes held, say, towards the like of opposition fans is unbelievable in a modern society. Self-defence is one thing...but even the law recognises that there is an issue with going beyond defence to aggression and retaliation.
2) Following on from the point above..... Your right..it isnt the world which we live in...but why do I have to accept that staus quo? Why cant I challenge it? What's wrong in not wanting violence, or to be violent. Why do we have to accept raw human aggression as acceptable..just because "it happens". Utopia ? Perhaps, but what is wrong in wanting something better for our society? The question you should be asking is..."what can be done to make it so?" The quote goes "evil succeeds when good men do nothing". I might be a pacifist...but please do not mistake that for not being an activist for wanting to make life better for others, and DOING something towards that goal.
3) Wars and speaking English.....as a son of parents who fought in WW2 I think I am reasonably qualified to appreciate the sacrifice given by millions for our security. There was no PTSD in those days, no counselling etc They just got on with life, dealt with what they could and buried the rest. My father is my hero...he survived 4 years as a PoW seeing stuff that no-man should have to. That was not just war, that was psychopathic killing. And yes, he would rather not have had to go to war, but he served, and yes he hated the idea of killing, but he served. Why? because it was national self-defence..as you point out...but would have been better if there had been no war. I have his PoW letters as proof of his thoughts. He was a hero to me. So MAYBE I have a little more insight on the war issue....maybe, but then I don't know your experience of course.

4) Seeing that you don't know if I'm a copper, a paramedic, a night-club bouncer, a hospital doctor etc etc. The "when was the last time" line to try and demonstrate to me my lack of grasp of the night-life and its dangers is a little strange. My experience of human nature shows me well enough the negative behaviour and its blasted on my tv etc. I am not THAT ignorant. I'm sure you and I would both agree it can be hell out there...and there are victims of unbridled drinking and drugs etc you obviously read of my experience with the druggie?

5) don't put yourself below me...I might have different morals..i MIGHT have. But I m uncomfortable with being hoisted up. As long as you and I are doing what we can to make sure we are not part of the problem...that qualified us to try and help those that are part of the problem. That's not a "sanctimonious" comment as has been said of me. That's someone who wants better...for everyone. I have said I would defend others, but not just respond or react to provocation or goading etc

6) I don't think that trying to encourage or nurture a different way of handling conflict is mis-informing. But you are free to see it that way. I have had opportunity to help those who have only seen reaction and retaliation as the only way that their parents use...and not surprisingly they are learning the same behaviours. Yes there is something in human nature to hate others...but that doesn't mean I have to give in to it...either for myself or for others. I am only trying to do my bit.

Now....about that dual.......I have a friend who is a marksman, can I phone a friend?:peace:

 

[AndyT]

Some decent points, Gpd.

The thing is we ALL have a flip switch/breaking point/fuse. It's human nature.

As you say, the key is controlling it.

Sometimes a combination of things can kick it into action and for some, it's a very short fuse.

Our fella in the dock simply had had enough of what he was witnessing and lost control. That's why there are supposedly police to handle and control the situation.

There's a huge number of issues raised by this incident, but the more you delve, the more you realize that this was an accident waiting to happen.

I'm anti-violence in a big way and do not condone anything that went on on Saturday, from either side, but can see why it happened.

The key is to learn from it and keep the atmosphere in the ground, without it leading to violence. Like we did in the Coventry match and many big games before that.

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

That's why there are supposedly police to handle and control the situation.

Or not in this case !

Re the coin throwing. Did any land in X Block ? Was it close enough ? I was sat in the middle of the West and couldn't really see.

 

[DTS]

Because they are best at calming situations down. A stewards job is not to deal with violence; it's to steward the game, not police it.

As you say - 4 police? Hard to believe.

As soon as there is trouble the stewards tend to move the women into the West and the blokes wade in which I think it right.

 

[GBJ]

Ok...I find myself with some time, so I hope this will help. I'll work through your comments..hope that's ok.

1) Yes...pacifism is a notion...but its not a bad one is it? Not wanting to see people injuring each other or killing each other. Surely that cant be a bad desire, can it? Is it achievable? That's another story -and human nature actually works against us on that one where we react and retaliate etc and not just out of self-defence, but unbridled hatred and aggression, and the inability to deal with opposition or provocation. Some of the attitudes held, say, towards the like of opposition fans is unbelievable in a modern society. Self-defence is one thing...but even the law recognises that there is an issue with going beyond defence to aggression and retaliation.
2) Following on from the point above..... Your right..it isnt the world which we live in...but why do I have to accept that staus quo? Why cant I challenge it? What's wrong in not wanting violence, or to be violent. Why do we have to accept raw human aggression as acceptable..just because "it happens". Utopia ? Perhaps, but what is wrong in wanting something better for our society? The question you should be asking is..."what can be done to make it so?" The quote goes "evil succeeds when good men do nothing". I might be a pacifist...but please do not mistake that for not being an activist for wanting to make life better for others, and DOING something towards that goal.
3) Wars and speaking English.....as a son of parents who fought in WW2 I think I am reasonably qualified to appreciate the sacrifice given by millions for our security. There was no PTSD in those days, no counselling etc They just got on with life, dealt with what they could and buried the rest. My father is my hero...he survived 4 years as a PoW seeing stuff that no-man should have to. That was not just war, that was psychopathic killing. And yes, he would rather not have had to go to war, but he served, and yes he hated the idea of killing, but he served. Why? because it was national self-defence..as you point out...but would have been better if there had been no war. I have his PoW letters as proof of his thoughts. He was a hero to me. So MAYBE I have a little more insight on the war issue....maybe, but then I don't know your experience of course.

4) Seeing that you don't know if I'm a copper, a paramedic, a night-club bouncer, a hospital doctor etc etc. The "when was the last time" line to try and demonstrate to me my lack of grasp of the night-life and its dangers is a little strange. My experience of human nature shows me well enough the negative behaviour and its blasted on my tv etc. I am not THAT ignorant. I'm sure you and I would both agree it can be hell out there...and there are victims of unbridled drinking and drugs etc you obviously read of my experience with the druggie?

5) don't put yourself below me...I might have different morals..i MIGHT have. But I m uncomfortable with being hoisted up. As long as you and I are doing what we can to make sure we are not part of the problem...that qualified us to try and help those that are part of the problem. That's not a "sanctimonious" comment as has been said of me. That's someone who wants better...for everyone. I have said I would defend others, but not just respond or react to provocation or goading etc

6) I don't think that trying to encourage or nurture a different way of handling conflict is mis-informing. But you are free to see it that way. I have had opportunity to help those who have only seen reaction and retaliation as the only way that their parents use...and not surprisingly they are learning the same behaviours. Yes there is something in human nature to hate others...but that doesn't mean I have to give in to it...either for myself or for others. I am only trying to do my bit.

Now....about that dual.......I have a friend who is a marksman, can I phone a friend?:peace:

I've just wrote a long response & lost it. I'll rewrite it & get back to you

 

[RHB]

I've just wrote a long response & lost it. I'll rewrite it & get back to you

If you wrote it in the quick reply box you may have the auto save button at the bottom of it. You can sometimes recover stuff that way.

 

[Bratislava Blue]

Apologies.... Should be BJB... Hope you're not offended... Lol:blush:

 

[Ramsdenblue]

Its a shame,

but the Southend United fans inside the ground made a fantastic effort to put money into collection buckets for little Alfie as the collectors walked around the ground in a bid to help the young lad and his family,

but, there were certain col u fans who seemed intent on throwing coins into block X with intention of putting our children and/ or parents in hospital.

Its a shame that they could not of saved their money and put into collection bucket to help one of their own.

Snr.

 

[geoffmundo]

I think the club should do the 'do you know anyone in this photograph?' again... it was so successful the last time

Yes, I know him, its Cian Bolger our CB!

 

[mrsblue]

I think the club should employ the pitch invader as a steward!,he could get some mates and wayhay no nonsense stewarding!

 

[Leoblue]

Blimey, it this thread still going and growing...

I purposely haven't posted on here because I don't know the facts so couldn't comment........

 

[geoffmundo]

The incredible interest from the media and the discussion on here is largely down to one development - phone/video.
I am not condoning any anti-social behaviour whatsoever but the facts are that one man ran across about 1/30 of the pitch, swung a few punches and ...that is it.
As far as is reported, no Col U fan has been hurt. So it is a no injury event.
It was stupid and wrong!!!
But this happened somewhere, possibly every Saturday from 1970 to 1990. It was wrong then too but I witnessed far worse on perhaps 30 plus occasions while following Southend United back in the day.
It seems so much more more shocking on Saturday as we have thankfully grown accustomed to trouble-free football but not a great deal actually happened and nobody was hurt.
The real drama? Phone coverage!!

Unfortunately not the case, 17 year old lad needed stitches to cut on his head.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Blimey, it this thread still going and growing...

I purposely haven't posted on here because I don't know the facts so couldn't comment........

Doesn't stop plenty of others posting

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Blimey, it this thread still going and growing...

I purposely haven't posted on here because I don't know the facts so couldn't comment........

Duplicate post

 

[skullyuk]

Stop posting then.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Unfortunately not the case, 17 year old lad needed stitches to cut on his head.

He was standing at the front, goading the Southend fans. He wasn't an innocent victim As wrong as it was, if he wasn't at the front giving it large, he wouldn't have been in the firing line