Mr Martin fully exposed and nowhere to hide!

[fbm]

Do you really need this spelling out? What did the club own before he acquired it? What does it own now?

That's not asset stripping. It's called a purchase.

 

[Leigh_Seasider]

NO ONE IS DEFENDING RON MARTIN! This is as big a lie as the ones people accuse Ron of telling. I haven't seen a post in defence of Ron for years. I have however seen (and made) posts not necessarily agreeing with the proposal to remove him from the club at this moment in time. That is a totally different point.

Just because not everyone is on the same page does not mean anyone is defending him.

Some people will interpret events in different ways, others may see things differently. It also doesn't mean they know him or are a shill. It just means they may not agree with other people and might have a different opinion as to the outcome. Everyone is allowed to have a different opinion.

Please treat that with some respect, even if you don't agree with it.

I’ve tried before with this approach. You could set your watch by this poster popping up on a thread talking about Ron stooges or plants or whatever..seems if you don’t call Ron “that thing” or “that person”, don’t blame him for absolutely everything and don’t want rid of him right now - today - you’re in their crosshairs.

 

[kentblues]

There used to be in happier times on here a rule that you played the ball not the man. Unfortunately with all the name calling there are some who don’t even accept there is a ball on the pitch.

A good start would to be stop the said name calling- it’s playground stuff…

 

[Blue43]

I thought the credit crisis killed off the 2008 plans? I do think that was really bad luck as opposed to Ron changing something to suit his agenda.

The credit crisis that killed the plans in 2008?

I hate to break it to you but we’re in a far worse credit crisis now than we was in 2008.

 

[Blue43]

I think fans might need to look up what asset stripping is before accusing anyone. So far he's actually developed better training pitches than we had. If FF is built we will have a better ground.

And who owns that training ground asset? Ron does. How did he build it, through more borrowed money.

It’s no wonder we’re in this mess when some of our fan base still believe Ron hasn’t stripped the club of every single asset

 

[kentblues]

I guess if people didn’t realise the club didn’t own the stadium anymore they will find this somewhat helpful

Soccer: Main explains why Southend sold Roots Hall

Southend United chairman John Main goes into the lion's den twice this week but is confident he will emerge without a scratch.

www.gazette-news.co.uk

 

[Fairport]

It is also not defending RM to point out that without his money (regardless of its source or his motives} we would have ceased to exist years ago.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. If RM wasn't here then there would almost certainly have been another owner (s). He could have easily sold the club or part of his share at any time. When clubs are up for sale 95% of the time someone else steps in, some good some bad.

 

[Medway Blue]

I guess if people didn’t realise the club didn’t own the stadium anymore they will find this somewhat helpful

Soccer: Main explains why Southend sold Roots Hall

Southend United chairman John Main goes into the lion's den twice this week but is confident he will emerge without a scratch.

www.gazette-news.co.uk

Only thing I'd say about that, is that John Main was toeing the company line. Saying "we had no choice" was disingenuous when he knew that SEL wanted Roots Hall for future development. I believe they got it for less than market value too as it had been valued at at least £2m more before that?

John Main was ousted from his position because he caught the feels for the club, started seeing through SEL and their promises/plans, and started fighting the club's corner and speaking out internally.

 

[blues exile]

That's not asset stripping. It's called a purchase.

No. He got his hands on the club and stripped it of everything it owned for his own dubious ends.

 

[kentblues]

Only thing I'd say about that, is that John Main was toeing the company line. Saying "we had no choice" was disingenuous when he knew that SEL wanted Roots Hall for future development. I believe they got it for less than market value too as it had been valued at at least £2m more before that?

John Main was ousted from his position because he caught the feels for the club, started seeing through SEL and their promises/plans, and started fighting the club's corner and speaking out internally.

No, I think they they got it cheap bit is another myth….The stadium was bought at a market valuation by Edward Symmonds & Partners who valued it as a commercial development site (it would have been worth less as a football stadium which clearly brings limitations).

 

[fbm]

The credit crisis that killed the plans in 2008?

I hate to break it to you but we’re in a far worse credit crisis now than we was in 2008.

I know this is off topic but it might be helpful for some and I apologise in advance.

We are not currently in a credit crisis. Interest rates are a bit higher and that means it might be harder to borrow, but that is not a credit crisis. We have a cost of living crisis (nothing to do with credit).

In 2008 credit stopped for a bit. Completely. That meant that the financial world came to a standstill and it screwed up a lot of stuff. But all of the other problems that we now have is not a credit crunch at all, it's a high cost of living due to a multitude of factors like Quantative easing (QE), COVID and the Ukraine war having a huge impact on inflation.

So, QE started 10 years or so ago with the Bank of England printing more money and making it available to institutions via the purchase of various Bonds and Government instruments. The downside of QE is that we add more money into the economy, which on it's own creates inflation (this is literally the dictionary definition of inflation). Whilst it went to the institutions and not to the general public, it was quite easy to control any inflationary effect.

But all the furlough money, salary guarantee and other measures the Govt had to take through the pandemic created an incredible amount of additional money in the economy - way more than all the QE added together in the past decade - and it was given to people like you and me. This fact, on it's own, means that prices go up.

This is not what happened in 2008. That was a credit crunch and for those who don't fully understand how credit works, here is the perfect analogy -

A guy visits a hotel and says he wants to fully inspect it to see if it meets his very high standards. As a gesture of good faith, he leaves £20 on the counter as a deposit, and off he goes to check the place out thoroughly, which he says will take a few hours.

The hotel owner takes the £20 and rushes to the greengrocer next door to pay for the vegetables provided your yesterday's meals.

The grocer takes the £20 and takes it next door to the barber to pay for last weeks haircut.

The barber goes next door to the butcher and pays £20 for the money owed for last weeks meat supply.

The butcher gives the £20 to the florist for the flowers bought last week and the florist runs to the hotel and gives the £20 to the hotel owner to pay for the room rental that was owed.

The hotel owner places the £20 back on the counter. The guest, following his thorough inspection, decides not to stay there, thanks the hotel owner, picks up his £20 note and leaves.

Five debts have been settled with the same £20 and no money has actually changed hands.

That is credit. As soon as one of those steps fails, there is trouble, and that's what happened in 2008 (obviously on a much bigger scale).

That is not what we've got now, so respectfully @Blue43 the two eras are not comparable.

Apologies for the long post.

 

[LBBlue]

Do you really need this spelling out? What did the club own before he acquired it? What does it own now?

The simple answer of course is that before 1998/99 the Club owned Roots Hall which was sold to Roots Hall Ltd for £4m (as valued by a Valuer that Ron contracted with compared to the book value in the accounts of £6.8m as valued by a Valuer that Vic employed. Martin Dawn Plc also bought the lease for the Access Sports ground for £500k when it had a book value of £1m.

The audited accounts for 1999 also state “ The Club may also participate in any uplift in value should the purchaser,in turn, sell the freehold or enter into a comprehensive redevelopment of the property“

This is how Ron will write back the debt to enable him to repay those who have lent his company money - capital investment - ie from the extra value from the land redevelopment. The intercompany debt is probably in excess of £20m now.

As well as these assets we also had a few £m of liabilities and were a few days from being wound up by HMRC. The only way the club was saved at the time was Ron and Delancy doing this deal.

Edit: PS The asset stripping went on in the Anton Johnson days when the funds in the supporters Christmas Club were no where to be found at Christmas and all sorts of equipment disappeared.

 

[Holy Joe]

The credit crisis that killed the plans in 2008?

I hate to break it to you but we’re in a far worse credit crisis now than we was in 2008.

Er - no

There was a touch of it during trussenomics that was confined to the UK and was very short lived - lasted a week or 2. But we are currently no where near 2008 in terms of availability of credit

 

[kentblues]

The simple answer of course is that before 1998/99 the Club owned Roots Hall which was sold to Roots Hall Ltd for £4 ( as valued by a Valuer that Ron contracted with compared to the book value in the accounts of £6.8m as valued by a Valuer that Vic employed. Martin Dawn Plc also bought the lease for the Access Sports ground for £500k when it had a book value of £1m.

The audited accounts for 1999 also state “ The Club may also participate in any uplift in value should the purchaser,in turn, sell the freehold or enter into a comprehensive redevelopment of the property“

This is how Ron will write back the debt to enable him to repay those who have lent his company money - capital investment - ie form the extra value from the land redevelopment. The intercompany debt is probably in excess of £20m now.

As well as these assets we also had a few £m of liabilities and were a few days from being wound up by HMRC. The only way the club was saved at the time was Ron and Delancy doing this deal.

There was a view that Vic was holding the asset at above its real value. This was, and still is, a way of bolstering the balance sheet that is destined to meet reality head on at some point.

The bit about uplift in value is interesting and reflects the fact that Edward Symmonds valued it as a commercial opportunity but of course without planning. So what this is suggesting that if planning were to be approved and, therefore there be a significant uplift in value, this would be shared with the club. I hadn’t noticed this before.

 

[fbm]

There was a view that Vic was holding the asset at above its real value. This was, and still is, a way of bolstering the balance sheet that is destined to meet reality head on at some point.

The bit about uplift in value is interesting and reflects the fact that Edward Symmonds valued it as a commercial opportunity but of course without planning. So what this is suggesting that if planning were to be approved and, therefore there be a significant uplift in value, this would be shared with the club. I hadn’t noticed this before.

It's the redevelopment bit that meant it was such an undervalue. There's nothing anyone could do about it by the way... Ron was in a queue of 1. But I remember thinking at the time that it was an absolute steal. Sadly I was £4m short of being able to raise a counter bid...

 

[Blue43]

I know this is off topic but it might be helpful for some and I apologise in advance.

We are not currently in a credit crisis. Interest rates are a bit higher and that means it might be harder to borrow, but that is not a credit crisis. We have a cost of living crisis (nothing to do with credit).

In 2008 credit stopped for a bit. Completely. That meant that the financial world came to a standstill and it screwed up a lot of stuff. But all of the other problems that we now have is not a credit crunch at all, it's a high cost of living due to a multitude of factors like Quantative easing (QE), COVID and the Ukraine war having a huge impact on inflation.

So, QE started 10 years or so ago with the Bank of England printing more money and making it available to institutions via the purchase of various Bonds and Government instruments. The downside of QE is that we add more money into the economy, which on it's own creates inflation (this is literally the dictionary definition of inflation). Whilst it went to the institutions and not to the general public, it was quite easy to control any inflationary effect.

But all the furlough money, salary guarantee and other measures the Govt had to take through the pandemic created an incredible amount of additional money in the economy - way more than all the QE added together in the past decade - and it was given to people like you and me. This fact, on it's own, means that prices go up.

This is not what happened in 2008. That was a credit crunch and for those who don't fully understand how credit works, here is the perfect analogy -

A guy visits a hotel and says he wants to fully inspect it to see if it meets his very high standards. As a gesture of good faith, he leaves £20 on the counter as a deposit, and off he goes to check the place out thoroughly, which he says will take a few hours.

The hotel owner takes the £20 and rushes to the greengrocer next door to pay for the vegetables provided your yesterday's meals.

The grocer takes the £20 and takes it next door to the barber to pay for last weeks haircut.

The barber goes next door to the butcher and pays £20 for the money owed for last weeks meat supply.

The butcher gives the £20 to the florist for the flowers bought last week and the florist runs to the hotel and gives the £20 to the hotel owner to pay for the room rental that was owed.

The hotel owner places the £20 back on the counter. The guest, following his thorough inspection, decides not to stay there, thanks the hotel owner, picks up his £20 note and leaves.

Five debts have been settled with the same £20 and no money has actually changed hands.

That is credit. As soon as one of those steps fails, there is trouble, and that's what happened in 2008 (obviously on a much bigger scale).

That is not what we've got now, so respectfully @Blue43 the two eras are not comparable.

Apologies for the long post.

Have to agree to disagree on that then.

Interest rates have gone up and building materials are higher than they have ever been before.

Fuel is almost double what it was in 2008 and energy prices are at an all time high.

Borrowing money is becoming increasingly more and more difficult.

Property prices continue to fall.

All of the above will have a massive impact on the FF development.

Also, up to the point Ron bought the club we still owned RH. That was quickly stripped from the club thanks to Ron

If he doesn’t get planning permission and start building the stadium in the next few months we’re going to be right back to square one again, apart from even more debt loaded on to us.

 

[kentblues]

It's the redevelopment bit that meant it was such an undervalue. There's nothing anyone could do about it by the way... Ron was in a queue of 1. But I remember thinking at the time that it was an absolute steal. Sadly I was £4m short of being able to raise a counter bid...

You are right- I think it would be a steal with planning permission for something else - but it didn’t have planning.

So it was valued as it was (a development opportunity) with a “commitment” to then share in any revaluation subsequent to planning permission. This seems reasonable.

What is particularly interesting is it’s the first time I have seen in writing such a statement. I assume it extends to the B&L site which was bought at the same time? This to me at least is news.

 

[Holy Joe]

Have to agree to disagree on that then.

Interest rates have gone up and building materials are higher than they have ever been before.

Fuel is almost double what it was in 2008 and energy prices are at an all time high.

Borrowing money is becoming increasingly more and more difficult.

Property prices continue to fall.

All of the above will have a massive impact on the FF development.

Also, up to the point Ron bought the club we still owned RH. That was quickly stripped from the club thanks to Ron

If he doesn’t get planning permission and start building the stadium in the next few months we’re going to be right back to square one again, apart from even more debt loaded on to us.

The nominal cost of credit has increased and we currently have high inflation - that is correct - but its not currently a credit crisis.

Real interest rates are still negative and on that basis debt is cheap

 

[blues exile]

The nominal cost of credit has increased and we currently have high inflation - that is correct - but its not currently a credit crisis.

Real interest rates are still negative and on that basis debt is cheap

Lending criteria has tightened in most respects whether individuals applying for mortgages or credit cards or companies seeking finance. It most definitely is a credit crisis.

 

[Blue43]

The nominal cost of credit has increased and we currently have high inflation - that is correct - but its not currently a credit crisis.

Real interest rates are still negative and on that basis debt is cheap

You’re missing my point.

Even if debt is cheaper now, the cost of this size development will be through the stratosphere compared to pre Covid and 2008.

As I said, fuel and energy are both at an all time high, and both WILL have an impact on the development cost. Factor in the cost of building materials which again is at an all time high, plus the drop in property prices along with rising interest rates, means it will cost huge amounts more to build for less profit.

Ron is a property developer who hasn’t developed anything for years. His name is dirt in the construction industry, trust me on this. I have dealt with most of the leading construction companies over the years in my career and from what I’ve been told I think it’s going to take a minor miracle for Ron to build this stadium, no matter who he’s in partnership with!