Breaking News RM Speaks..

[united we stand]

Is that why we haven't bought any new players, so they can't be re-possessed by the Tax-man ?

According to the below under the new rules agreed in the meeting Ron refers to we can't sign players if we are behind in payments to the revenue. HOWEVER it doesn't make it clear when these new rules come into effect, and it also doesn't go into any detail on the terms of the replayment that Ron mentioned.

In other words I assume once the rules come into affect , then as long as we have agreed repayment terms with the revenue, and we do not break these terms then we can still buy players. So I am hoping that the rule changes do not affect us. I have emailed the FL for clarity , they are not picking up the phone. However I accept that they do not have to reply
http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/News/FLNewsDetail/0,,10794~1691419,00.html

reasons for the change
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-have-28m-tax-debts-written-off-Football.html

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

but then the question has to be matt , why cant we afford to pay our bills, if were not spending it on players, and not on our bills, wages are being part paid by the football league, then really 'were has all the /any of the money gone? weve beeen told time and time again, that the stadium would not be funded by transfer money ect,

ANyway need not worrry Geofrrey king told us catagorically last week in the echo that there was money to spend didnt he?

I don't know, is the honest answer. I would normally have said that all the money has gone on servicing our debts - let's not forget, we're in hock to Martin Dawn to the tune of several million. After all, MD and Delancey bought out Jobson's debts; and then, in turn, MD bought out Delancey's investment.

But Ron told me - in a written answer to one of my questions - that the debt is not being serviced. That means, incidentally, that the debt is growing - unless Ron decides voluntarily to write some of the debt down in the accounts which, to his due, Ron has done at least once.

So, if the debt is not being serviced, where the hell is the money going? The answer, I suspect, is as YB has pointed out, on some not particularly successful transfers - unsuccessful in that, of the players in question, only one was any good; and all were expensive. Players I'm thinking of are:

*Clarke
*Paynter
*Harrold
*Foran
*Ricketts
*Hammell
*Francis

All of the above have been (a) pricey; and (b) largely unsuccessful (although I'm still hoping that Franno will come good).

That, I'm afraid, is where the money's gone - and a fat lot of good it's done us. It's why, whenever we get into transfer silly season, there's always a large part of me that hopes that Tilson signs someone I've never heard of from the non-leagues. That way, we can not only probably afford them, but we also might be uncovering another rough diamond...

Matt

 

[canveyshrimper]

Good points Matt. On the point of good / bad transfers I think it's worth pointing out that Hammell arrived on a free and was sold back to Motherwell for something in the region of 150k. I guess we'll never really know the full story with Ricketts, and to be fair we did recoup some money from Paynter & Harrold.

Which leaves Foran who was a waste of space & Clarke who in the end was a big drain on financial resources with no recompense at the end.

HMCR are notoriously prompt in placing winding up orders on companies who transgress, but as RM has pointed out this appears to be perverse as the petition was made on the day that the Football League reached agreement with HMCR on payment issues. But in all likelihood the petition was already in the system and could not be stopped.

Also a winding up order does not necessarily mean the complete demise of a company. I think we have to take Ron's word in his statement yesterday, and we have to await developments.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Good points Matt. On the point of good / bad transfers I think it's worth pointing out that Hammell arrived on a free and was sold back to Motherwell for something in the region of 150k. I guess we'll never really know the full story with Ricketts, and to be fair we did recoup some money from Paynter & Harrold.

Which leaves Foran who was a waste of space & Clarke who in the end was a big drain on financial resources with no recompense at the end.

HMCR are notoriously prompt in placing winding up orders on companies who transgress, but as RM has pointed out this appears to be perverse as the petition was made on the day that the Football League reached agreement with HMCR on payment issues. But in all likelihood the petition was already in the system and could not be stopped.

Also a winding up order does not necessarily mean the complete demise of a company. I think we have to take Ron's word in his statement yesterday, and we have to await developments.

Transfer fees aren't the problem, it's wages that are the problem.

Dave Webb understood this and off-loaded players on high wages on free transfers and replaced them with cash signings from non-league football who were on low wages. The net result was a vast improvement in our financial position by spending money on transfer fees.

I don't know how much the players are on, but if the average player is on £2k a week basic that is a £100,000 a year (plus signing on fees, pension, national insurance etc etc). I strongly suspect the likes of Clarke, Francis and Hammell were on more than that. They were on 3 year deals, so that is £900,000+ spent before transfer fees on three players. The transfer fee received for Hammell (don't recall it being as high as £150,000) probably just paid his signing on fee.

Unfortanately when we went up, Uncle Ron got carried away with the success we'd acheived on a shoestring and we spent too much money in the belief that everything Tilly touched turned to gold. To make matters worse, the players we signed, the likes of Clarke, Hammell and Francis were all signed on championship wages but failed to give us anything resembling championship performances.

The way forward is a small, close knit-squad, relying on finding good youth team and non-league players, on cheap wages. Signing players on the fringe of championship first team football is the way to economic oblivion.

 

[cockles is back]

I don't know, is the honest answer. I would normally have said that all the money has gone on servicing our debts - let's not forget, we're in hock to Martin Dawn to the tune of several million. After all, MD and Delancey bought out Jobson's debts; and then, in turn, MD bought out Delancey's investment.

But Ron told me - in a written answer to one of my questions - that the debt is not being serviced. That means, incidentally, that the debt is growing - unless Ron decides voluntarily to write some of the debt down in the accounts which, to his due, Ron has done at least once.

So, if the debt is not being serviced, where the hell is the money going? The answer, I suspect, is as YB has pointed out, on some not particularly successful transfers - unsuccessful in that, of the players in question, only one was any good; and all were expensive. Players I'm thinking of are:

*Clarke
*Paynter
*Harrold
*Foran
*Ricketts
*Hammell
*Francis

All of the above have been (a) pricey; and (b) largely unsuccessful (although I'm still hoping that Franno will come good).

That, I'm afraid, is where the money's gone - and a fat lot of good it's done us. It's why, whenever we get into transfer silly season, there's always a large part of me that hopes that Tilson signs someone I've never heard of from the non-leagues. That way, we can not only probably afford them, but we also might be uncovering another rough diamond...

Matt

but as a club every season we must be evolving we cant keep bleating on about expesive signings that were made, incidently when we were given a large chunk of dough from the league for getting promoted as champions, if we are counting them signings lets compare with what we have recieved in transfers in that period along with unexpected cup runs etc, we have got to get away from this 'expensive signings tag' that keeps coming up from players past, who incidently didnt seem very expensive at the time in the proportion of things

 

[EastStandBlue]

but as a club every season we must be evolving we cant keep bleating on about expesive signings that were made, incidently when we were given a large chunk of dough from the league for getting promoted as champions, if we are counting them signings lets compare with what we have recieved in transfers in that period along with unexpected cup runs etc, we have got to get away from this 'expensive signings tag' that keeps coming up from players past, who incidently didnt seem very expensive at the time in the proportion of things

First of all, don't get carried away with the "large chunk of dough" we recieved for winning League One. I can guarantee you the prize money we recieved was abysmal. I recall someone at the time posted the prize money for all the league competitions, filtering from the Premiership all the way down to League two.

Secondly, we are evolving. As quickly as humanly possible but, with the stadium and increased revenue streams pivotal to this evolution, we are subject to exterior influences such as the recession.

When we made those signings, things were looking up and we could "afford" to speculate on certain players. Peter Clarke aside, we've made money back from each speculative signing we made, some more than others.

I maintain that, when looked back upon, Peter Clarke will be seen as a disastrous signing for the club. He was brought here on a hefty fee to do a job he spectacularly failed at, set a precedent of Championship wages at the club, then f*cked off on a free when he decided, after three years, he felt a little homesick.

 

[fredheim_holm]

When we made those signings, things were looking up and we could "afford" to speculate on certain players. Peter Clarke aside, we've made money back from each speculative signing we made, some more than others.

More importantly we couldn't afford not to in quite a few of those cases.

 

[cockles is back]

First of all, don't get carried away with the "large chunk of dough" we recieved for winning League One. I can guarantee you the prize money we recieved was abysmal. I recall someone at the time posted the prize money for all the league competitions, filtering from the Premiership all the way down to League two.

Secondly, we are evolving. As quickly as humanly possible but, with the stadium and increased revenue streams pivotal to this evolution, we are subject to exterior influences such as the recession.

When we made those signings, things were looking up and we could "afford" to speculate on certain players. Peter Clarke aside, we've made money back from each speculative signing we made, some more than others.

I maintain that, when looked back upon, Peter Clarke will be seen as a disastrous signing for the club. He was brought here on a hefty fee to do a job he spectacularly failed at, set a precedent of Championship wages at the club, then f*cked off on a free when he decided, after three years, he felt a little homesick.

so why in earlier posts did people keep telling me, the reason behind us not having any money is because we are now 2.3 or what ever mill ess better off because of the drop down in leagues because we no longer get the money from the FA for being a championship club, everytime I raise a point someone comes back with a valid argument that contradicts someone else in another post

 

[Reg Martin]

I think over last 4-5 years we've probably got slightly more back in transfer fees than we've paid out so I don't think that's the source of financial problems.
I think its more likely to be wages - We got promoted from League 1 with a squad on League 2 wages but 12 months later ended up back in League 1 with a squad on Championship wages.

 

[Beefy]

so why in earlier posts did people keep telling me, the reason behind us not having any money is because we are now 2.3 or what ever mill ess better off because of the drop down in leagues because we no longer get the money from the FA for being a championship club, everytime I raise a point someone comes back with a valid argument that contradicts someone else in another post

Championship Clubs get a large amount of TV money from the contract that the Football League negotiates with Sky, and now the BBC. The share for League One clubs is much lower. That's the main area where our income has been hit by relegation (although obviously we're also getting reduced income through the gate and through things like sponsorship and merchandising).

When we were promoted our income went up but so did out outgoings, on transfer fees and wages especially. In the accounts to August 07 we made a tiny profit, and that was after selling Freddy Eastwood for £1.5m and reaching the last eight of the League Cup. Without those two things we'd have returned a major loss. In the two years since then out income has fallen but our outgoings have remained stubbornly high.

You asked in the thread earlier where the money has gone. It's all in the accounts (which were audited, by the way). We've spent, and continue to spend, far too much money.

My job is looking at businesses which are about to fail. There's very few better signs that a business is on it's last legs than a winding-up petition from HMRC. For what it's worth, I completely believe RM's explanation and happen to know for a fact that SUFC's bankers aren't overly concerned, but either way we're in this mess because we've used the money that should be used for our tax bill as working capital and whilst I have complete faith that the money will be paid and we'll not go into Administration, let alone fold, it's hard to argue that the Club isn't being run as a particularly great business right now.

 

[Reg Martin]

My job is looking at businesses which are about to fail. There's very few better signs that a business is on it's last legs than a winding-up petition from HMRC. For what it's worth, I completely believe RM's explanation and happen to know for a fact that SUFC's bankers aren't overly concerned, but either way we're in this mess because we've used the money that should be used for our tax bill as working capital and whilst I have complete faith that the money will be paid and we'll not go into Administration, let alone fold, it's hard to argue that the Club isn't being run as a particularly great business right now.

There's so many people on here who are so entrenched in their unthinking opposition to Ron Martin that I find it very hard most of the time to take any of the endless 'we're in financial trouble' stuff seriously. But that sort of comment from someone who appears as sensible as Beefy does from his posts on here is hard to dismiss.

 

[Beefy]

There's so many people on here who are so entrenched in their unthinking opposition to Ron Martin that I find it very hard most of the time to take any of the endless 'we're in financial trouble' stuff seriously. But that sort of comment from someone who appears as sensible as Beefy does from his posts on here is hard to dismiss.

To clarify, I don't think that Ron Martin has done anything wrong other than get carried away trying to establish this Club at a level that it's simply not ready yet to be at. In my experience a lot of the people who take up this opposition to Ron are also the first people to moan when we don't spend £275k on a seventh striker or other clubs at this level who are not twelve months out of Administration due to overspending themselves decide to sign a name player on a £3.5k a week contract.

RM wants the Club established in the Championship or at least towards the top of League One by the time that the new stadium opens up and he's spent the money to try to do that but we're swimming against the tide and as this winding-up petition has shown it's not beyond the realms of possibility that we could drown. My fear is that we'll continue to throw money at trying to get back into the Championship, we'll end up defaulting on a tax bill and we'll wind up in Administration. And that could potentially be the end of the new stadium, the end of Ron Martin and the start of us dropping back to the bottom half of League Two.

Of course if the alternative is to cut the wage bill and spend nothing on transfer fees then we run the risk of dropping into the bottom half of League two, too. And none of us want that.

The whole thing depresses me no end.

 

[Hotman]

To clarify, I don't think that Ron Martin has done anything wrong other than get carried away trying to establish this Club at a level that it's simply not ready yet to be at.

So you don't feel that he has, to put it mildly, glossed over the true issue in his article? He is pushing the blame towards HMRC, however the facts are that the club have known about this debt for some time, and I believe that HMRC would have gone through the necessary recovery procedures before this stage.

He also refers to "left hand not knowing what right hand is doing" about HMRC. Well, according to the football league press release (and assuming that it provides full and comprehensive detail of the arrangements) all the FL have agreed is that they'll help HMRC with surveillance of taxes, and stop naughty clubs from transferring players. Be prepared for a quiet summer.

Businesses have the opportunity of arranging "time to pay". It's not a magic pill for football clubs, it is a standard arrangement that businesses and HMRC can enter into by mutual agreement. What SUFC offered, or can afford, was clearly not agreeable for HMRC, hence the action taken. I can only hope that Ron ups his offer to HMRC, otherwise we can look forward to starting the season rooted at the bottom of the table.

I'm guessing the patronising "don't be so silly, it's nothing serious and will all be sorted soon" attitude of his press release is the same message that is being fed to the bankers and other creditors.

I am very worried by this.

 

[Beefy]

We're not going to get wound up. HMRC have an agreement in place with the League after two years of trying and they aren't going to throw that away now to make an example of SUFC. That's why it's a case of bad timing.

I see plenty of companies who receive winding-up petitions every single year. They don't see the problem because they can afford to meet the bill but they just don't make the payment until the last possible moment. That isn't the issue here but most businesses will pay their bills as late as possible when cash is tight and the tax bill is usually the one that gets left because it's the largest bill that most companies have to pay every year. Of course that's why HMRC come down so hard on people who do that.

There's no glossing over the fact that this is a bad sign, no matter how hard RM tries. We're not going to go under but I just hope that we're not in the same boat this time next year.

 

[Hotman]

We're not going to get wound up. HMRC have an agreement in place with the League after two years of trying and they aren't going to throw that away now to make an example of SUFC. That's why it's a case of bad timing.

I see plenty of companies who receive winding-up petitions every single year. They don't see the problem because they can afford to meet the bill but they just don't make the payment until the last possible moment. That isn't the issue here but most businesses will pay their bills as late as possible when cash is tight and the tax bill is usually the one that gets left because it's the largest bill that most companies have to pay every year. Of course that's why HMRC come down so hard on people who do that.

There's no glossing over the fact that this is a bad sign, no matter how hard RM tries. We're not going to go under but I just hope that we're not in the same boat this time next year.

I agree we are not going to go under, however I can't see how it is going to be paid off, together with the necessary expenditure to improve the club to befit a 22,000 stadium, whilst operating on such a loss. Hence, I also don't see how we won't be in the same boat next year.

As the club has no assets I am worried that -10 points might be seen as an easy way out.

I certainly wouldn't sell SUFC a player at the moment.

 

[Beefy]

Ron said a couple of weeks ago (before this all came out) that the Club had a shortfall from HMRC that he was going to be paying through other companies.

For us -10 points isn't an easy way out as I think it would be difficult for RM to legally raise a Phoenix company (or several Phoenix companies considering the number of legal entities involved) to buy the assets back up and even if he could I don't know whether the new legal entity would be able to utilise the planning permission that we've got for the new ground (maybe someone can clarify that?)

As far as I can see the only way that Ron Martin can make money here (which ultimately is his end-game and the reason why he got involved in SUFC in the first place) is if we can build a new ground at Fossetts Farm. I believe in order to do that he's got to keep the Club out of Administration and establish it at least in the middle of League One with average games of 7k+. It's going to be tough.

 

[hindle_666]

I agree we are not going to go under, however I can't see how it is going to be paid off, together with the necessary expenditure to improve the club to befit a 22,000 stadium, whilst operating on such a loss. Hence, I also don't see how we won't be in the same boat next year.

As the club has no assets I am worried that -10 points might be seen as an easy way out.

I certainly wouldn't sell SUFC a player at the moment.

To be fair have we got any players that would demand a decent fee,
i dont think so??????

 

[canveyshrimper]

[/B]


To be fair have we got any players that would demand a decent fee,
i dont think so??????

Read his post again, you've completely misinterpreted it.

 

[Hotman]

Ron said a couple of weeks ago (before this all came out) that the Club had a shortfall from HMRC that he was going to be paying through other companies.

For us -10 points isn't an easy way out as I think it would be difficult for RM to legally raise a Phoenix company (or several Phoenix companies considering the number of legal entities involved) to buy the assets back up and even if he could I don't know whether the new legal entity would be able to utilise the planning permission that we've got for the new ground (maybe someone can clarify that?)

As far as I can see the only way that Ron Martin can make money here (which ultimately is his end-game and the reason why he got involved in SUFC in the first place) is if we can build a new ground at Fossetts Farm. I believe in order to do that he's got to keep the Club out of Administration and establish it at least in the middle of League One with average games of 7k+. It's going to be tough.

I would have thought hmrc would accept a pre-pack arrangement if RM / other companies pays a proportion of the debt - question is, would the deduction be worth it?

 

[Hotman]

[/b]


To be fair have we got any players that would demand a decent fee,
i dont think so??????

No, I agree, that's why I'm worried that no-one would sell to us.