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Autumn budget statement - The end of the line for Cameron/Osborne?

12 weeks is generous. That's 3 months pay yet your wife could well walk into a new job the very next week. The fact she's on MW is hardly relevant to anything as 12 weeks pay is still 12 weeks worth of wages that your wife was prepared to go and work for.

I hope she does, in the meantime we're going to have to rely on handouts to keep a roof above our head. We've both paid income tax & NI for most of our lives so I like to think that the safety net is there until she does.

Of course I have. I've worked since I was old enough to be allowed to work. I started out washing up plates in a kitchen, before taking a job basically getting crapped on by livestock in a popular pet store chain.....Fortunately I've moved on from that time in my life to better things, but I've never been out of work since my first day and barely taken a day off sick. That includes at least 8/9 job moves and several "career moves" in the process. Back when I was 24 I was also made redundant as a contractor where you get FA squared for being given the flick.....I took a job with a far lower level of income despite not being able to make ends meet and got a second job to rectify this shortfall at ASDA over weekends and one night during the week on the night shift until 2am stocking the freezers.....Up again at 7am for my day job. I know there are many who work even harder than I had to back then.....For this they get my utmost respect.

But those who sit at home not bothering looking for work ( I mean REALLY looking) get no respect from me....None whatsoever. If they don't get my respect, why should they get a slice of my earnings?

I have to say I can't disagree with that at all. However it's not so easy to flog your guts out when there's no family support structure around you.
 
Are you sure the people who run Amazon/Starbucks/Google pay sod all tax?

The recent scandal was over the amounts of corporation tax paid by the company, not by it's employees/owners.

Those companies employ many people and will pay national insurance in respect of their employees. I think they pay VAT as well. Meanwhile their employees will be paying income tax and national insurance on their salaries and their owners will be paying income tax on any share dividends and capital gains tax on profit from selling the shares of the company.

Ok! Knew I was wrong to argue tax & money when quite frankly I haven't got a clue!
 
And neither, I would respectfully suggest, are you.

I appreciate your respect, but you are wrong. I covered your point about convention and compassion. You have chosen to entirely disregard my point, though perhaps because you don't have a counter-argument.

In a contracting economy, there are too many people chasing far too few jobs.

This is nonsense. We have covered the "lump of labour fallacy" before. The belief that there are a defined number of jobs in an economy is nonsense. Employment is about the value derived against the cost. This is why increasing the cost of employing someone increases unemployment. I just wrote a huge section on employment and labour costs but what is the point? The only other thing I will add is that there a lot of vacancies in the UK that can't be filled because there are not enough skilled people.

On the uprating of benefits, this really is so obvious. Let's take it to an extreme example: if out of work benefits were £50k per year per person how many people would work? Clearly anyone that couldn't get a job that paid £50k wouldn't bother. The same applies at the minimum wage level where benefits, especially for single parents, are about the same as the net income they would earn from working, especially when childcare costs are taken into account.

That means that more people are dragged into that circumstance when benefits increase at a faster rate than wages. Hence it makes it almost impossible for those people to ever escape the benefits trap. Is it just me here??? I don't know what else I can do...
 
Ha ha grey repped by Daily Mail Shrimper accusing me of bigotry. You couldn't make it up!
 
I appreciate your respect, but you are wrong. I covered your point about convention and compassion. You have chosen to entirely disregard my point, though perhaps because you don't have a counter-argument.

Sorry but I'm really not sure what exactly your main point actually is.If you could synthesise it for me I'm sure I could come up with a counter-argument.
 
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Sorry but I'm really not sure what exactly your main point actually is.If you could sythesise it for me I'm sure I could come up with a counter-argument.

Perfectly understandable since I've only written it three times now. I surrender, Barna... I can take no more of this.
 
ps I don't think many people in the last 4-5 years had a salary increase in rate with inflation. So to suggest people on benefits are somehow missing out is disingenuous.

pps I would say the unemployed could look to EU for a job, but that's a busted economy as well. And in Spain where the economy is more broken than a broken thing, you wouldn't want non-Nationals taking the local jobs.
 
Perfectly understandable since I've only written it three times now. I surrender, Barna... I can take no more of this.

Sorry to appear a bit dense(I was multi-tasking a lot yesterday).
I imagine the crux of your argument is that the current level of benefits doesn't make work pay?
If that's the case, I'm quite happy to(try and)do a Karl Popper on you.

"The latest figures show that 60% of people living in poverty are working,while some 6.4 million people in the UK are underemployed and cannot find the work they want." (Joseph Rowntree Foundation 2012)

http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/monitoring-poverty-2012

Basically work isn't paying.
So with very little opportunity for sustainable employment along with decreasing social support and reduced access to housing ,"millions of people will almost certainly find themselves excluded from the mainstream and effectively placed outside the social contract that binds us all together."
What GO started last week was an attempt to change the social contract that's been in force ever since the 1942 Beveridge report's proposals were implemented after WW2.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/08/benefit-cuts-condemned-by-church-charity
 
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"The latest figures show that 60% of people living in poverty are working,while some 6.4 million people in the UK are underemployed and cannot find the work they want." (Joseph Rowntree Foundation 2012)

Where to start with this. I have always had a problem with the definition of poverty in these statistics. I think it distorts policy decisions as Ministers chase targets, which are now statutory obligations. Poverty is defined as having household income less than 60% of the median household income.

First of all that makes the definition of "poverty" relative not absolute. That is an important distinction to make since most people would consider poverty to be not having sufficient money to feed and support a family. It also means that "poverty" has increased over the decades as society has become richer but income distribution has grown. As an extreme example (I always think extreme examples demonstrate logical flaws), the medieval period had the vast majority of people with very little or nothing and a few who had a lot. Using the current definition the poverty rate would have been almost zero. Moving forward, the 50s and 60s would have had a much lower poverty rate based on the current definition. Given the material advances over the last 50 years can we really justify that measurement?

My next problem is that it is never broken down by region. That doesn't matter so much for determining the median income but it does matter for each individual household. A North-East household may well be below 60% of the national median income level but could be well above the regional median level. This is a wider problem with the poverty/inequality debate as inequality of income is totally irrelevant; what matters is inequality of consumption. It is the purchasing power of that income that drives inequality, which is why someone on one quarter of my salary can buy a four bedroom house in the North East and I can only buy a two bedroom flat in London.

Finally, relative poverty measures usually improve during a recession because median household income declines. You can see this in the link that Barna provided as 3 of the four measures of "poverty" have declined in the last 10 years. On that basis, the best way to improve the poverty measure would actually be to tank the economy or hammer the middle class in order to reduce the median household income. That would obviously be nuts.

So what is the point of this? The point is that the "poverty" measure isn't really any such thing. It exists as a measure, but not necessarily a good one. The best way to improve living standards is, and always has been, work. The undermeployment point I will deal with below.

Basically work isn't paying.

This may well be true, but that is entirely independent from the increase in benefits. The point remains valid about disincentivising work if benefits increase faster than wages.

Why is work not paying? Well, quite a lot of it is to do with the cost of employment and tax in particular. The other factor is the cost of living, which is hammering everyone at the moment. This is also the principle driver of the underemployment figure you mentioned earlier.

As I discussed earlier, there are not a finite number of jobs in an economy and when they are full everyone else has to queue outside. Employment is a simple assessment of whether the value added exceeds the cost of employment.

The value added is depressed at the moment because aggregate demand has been reduced (we can argue about whether this is temporary or permanent) so employment falls if the cost of employment stays the same. What this government and the last have done is to increase the cost of employment (the NI rise, additional regulation and employment rights). Employment has only remained stable because workers are prepared to reduce their hours (and effectively share jobs) to avoid full redundancy. The unemployment figures are therefore nothing to do with the government at all.

So with very little opportunity for sustainable employment along with decreasing social support and reduced access to housing ,"millions of people will almost certainly find themselves excluded from the mainstream and effectively placed outside the social contract that binds us all together."

I'm not quite sure what the quote from the vicar actually means. The social contract has been bust for years. The entire welfare state is virtually unaffordable now with the ticking demographic time bomb facing this country. In twenty years the state pension will almost certainly have to be means tested and taxes will have to increase further without radical action. No one is going to take that action or even acknowledge the problem though.

What GO started last week was an attempt to change the social contract that's been in force ever since the 1942 Beveridge report's proposals were implemented after WW2.

I've never read the Beveridge Report but I suspect it didn't set out a plan to have 13% of the woeking age population being dependent on the state during the biggest boom of the post war era. It was supposed to be a safety net and not a way of life.
 
The best way to improve living standards is, and always has been, work

Quite but as we all know(and you yourself have admitted) work is somewhat scarce at the moment(for various reasons) and is likely to remain so for the foreseable future in the UK and the Eurozone.

The point remains valid about disincentivising work if benefits increase faster than wages
.

But benefits are not increasing faster than wages and they certainly won't be for the next three years if GO succeeds in breaking the link between benefits and prices in January.

The social contract has been bust for years.

On the contrary, "The 1% uprating means that for the first time since 1931,the income of the poorest will fall as a deliberate act of government policy."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...orial-labours-responsibility-to-welfate-state

I've never read the Beveridge Report but I suspect it didn't set out a plan to have 13% of the woeking age population being dependent on the state during the biggest boom of the post war era.

Who really gets what from the welfare state?
The unemployed only get 2 billion pounds(out of 53 billion).Pensioner benefits of 24 billion take "the largest slice."


[
 
But benefits are not increasing faster than wages and they certainly won't be for the next three years if GO succeeds in breaking the link between benefits and prices in January.

Public sector wages are being held to 1% increases over the next three years. I can't find any recent data on private sector pay increases. Last year averaged 3% though I am aware that the projected increase is closer to 0% this year. Hence benefits would be increasing faster than wages if uprated by inflation.



Who really gets what from the welfare state?
The unemployed only get 2 billion pounds(out of 53 billion).Pensioner benefits of 24 billion take "the largest slice."

The projected figures for 2013 are as follows:

- Pensions £138.1bn
- Family and children benefits £21.6bn
- Unemployment £9.8bn
- Housing £1.4bn
- Social Exclusion and protection £29.6bn

That gives a total of £200.5bn, which is about one third of all spending and about one sixth of GDP. Note that the pensions figure is state pension only; it does not include the public sector pension liability.

This is completely unsustainable with the demographic trouble ahead. There simply won't be enough people working to pay the state pension if other spending and tax levels are maintained.

For the record, in 2007 the welfare bill was £137.6bn, which was 34% of total spending. The welfare bill has not increased as a percentage of total spending as a result of the financial crisis.
 
Who really gets what from the welfare state?
The unemployed only get 2 billion pounds(out of 53 billion).Pensioner benefits of 24 billion take "the largest slice."

I have no idea whether your numbers are accurate (and is it's the Grauniad I doubt it), but a comparison of unemployment and pensioner benefit expenditure which fails to take into account that there are many more pensioners than unemployed is fundamentally ********.
 
I have no idea whether your numbers are accurate (and is it's the Grauniad I doubt it), but a comparison of unemployment and pensioner benefit expenditure which fails to take into account that there are many more pensioners than unemployed is fundamentally ********.

Not really, since we're talking about Government spending on benefits in the round, rather than per capita share.
Incidentally "a study by the New Policy Institute(I do hope you'll trust their figures)says that as a share of national income,total spending on benefits and tax credits has never been higher than 13%".
Also, according to Professor Marjoie Mayo's research , "intergenerational worklessness accounts for under 2% of the working population." While that's too many, it's hardly the sort of epidemic that IDS has been talking up recently.
While the figures certainly can be seen as "a sign of rising state dependancy" it's certainly not the nightmare picture that IDS has been painting recently,either.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...orial-labours-responsibility-to-welfate-state
 
Incidentally "a study by the New Policy Institute(I do hope you'll trust their figures)says that as a share of national income,total spending on benefits and tax credits has never been higher than 13%".

Glad you agree with the figures I posted. Welfare accounts for one third of government spending and about one sixth of GDP. You think it should be higher though?
 
Glad you agree with the figures I posted. Welfare accounts for one third of government spending and about one sixth of GDP. You think it should be higher though?

Haven't had time to digest your previous post fully(or check the figures).Personally,I think welfare spending should be as high as it needs to be to ensure that as many people as possible are lifted out of the poverty trap.
We live in difficult times though and it seems right to me to review welfare spending(as well as all other areas of government expenditure).
Don't think we'll be hearing much more about this particular topic in the run up to Xmas(for obvious reasons)but Team Ed must be working on their strategy (and tactics)for when the Government introduces its bill in January.
I hope(and expect)the PLP to be instructed to vote against, or at least pile so many amendments onto the bill that it gets heavily watered down from the measures envisaged in GO's autumn statement.
 
Public sector wages are being held to 1% increases over the next three years. I can't find any recent data on private sector pay increases. Last year averaged 3% though I am aware that the projected increase is closer to 0% this year. Hence benefits would be increasing faster than wages if uprated by inflation.

The reality is that by cutting the link between benefits and prices,with benefits due to rise by only 1% over the next three years while "Inflation for the period that the 1% cap lasts is expected to run at 2%", benefits will be cut in real terms.





The projected figures for 2013 are as follows:

- Pensions £138.1bn
-
That gives a total of £200.5bn, which is about one third of all spending and about one sixth of GDP.

I thought you didn't care for projected figures?

This is completely unsustainable with the demographic trouble ahead. There simply won't be enough people working to pay the state pension if other spending and tax levels are maintained.

Pension spending and the demographic time bomb is a well known phenomenon.How much cutting back on benefits for the unemployed,single parents etc will add to this particular savings pot is a moot point.Traditionally pensions have been paid for partly by working peoples' own contributions and by the contributions of successive generations in work.If there isn't enough work to go around in the future then obviously there's a problem here.But growth and not cutting back welfare spending is the solution.

For the record, in 2007 the welfare bill was £137.6bn, which was 34% of total spending. The welfare bill has not increased as a percentage of total spending as a result of the financial crisis.

I've already quoted the study by the New Policy Institute which says that "as a share of national income,total spending on benefits and tax credits has never been higher at 13% of GDP".
Why focus on 2007 when there are more recent figures available?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...orial-labours-responsibility-to-welfate-state
 
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