Brexit negotiations thread

[MK Shrimper]

That's not an answer, that's jealously.

Not at all. I want to be governed by people who have experienced the bitter end of life, not some chinless moneyed toff.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

This should certainly concern those interested in Labour's brexit stance.

(Apologies for the Guardian link.The story hasn'rt been picked up by the Beeb yet).:smile:

Yep, which I suppose, goes to show that Labour may have an even more difficult task dealing with Brexit than the Tories. The government only have to deal with the thorny task of what quality of Brexit is decided on. Whereas Labour have the double tightrope to walk in firstly deciding their stance for their own supporters and secondly, providing a clear and unambiguous position in front of the electorate. Good luck to them on that one. The risk of course is that they will either lose seats in the strong traditional heartlands who voted for Brexit. or those in London and the leafy suburbs, who voted remain.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Not at all. I want to be governed by people who have experienced the bitter end of life, not some chinless moneyed toff.

So you will be concerned by someone like Jeremy Corbyn then I presume. Unless of course he has experience of 'the bitter end of life' that seems so important to you. Personally, I would struggle to name one MP who has endured the rough end of life but you stick to getting all hot under the collar with the tory ones. The Labour ones must all be martyrs to the cause, whatever that might be.

 

[MK Shrimper]

So you will be concerned by someone like Jeremy Corbyn then I presume. Unless of course he has experience of 'the bitter end of life' that seems so important to you. Personally, I would struggle to name one MP who has endured the rough end of life but you stick to getting all hot under the collar with the tory ones. The Labour ones must all be martyrs to the cause, whatever that might be.

Angela Rayner.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Angela Rayner.

Took a while to find that name didn't it. Any others google can throw up for you?

 

[Gremlin]

I want to be governed by people who have experienced the bitter end of life

You mean like that scallywag that made it all the way to the top from the tough, crime-ridden backstreets of Luxembourg, Jean-Claude Juncker?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yep, which I suppose, goes to show that Labour may have an even more difficult task dealing with Brexit than the Tories. The government only have to deal with the thorny task of what quality of Brexit is decided on. Whereas Labour have the double tightrope to walk in firstly deciding their stance for their own supporters and secondly, providing a clear and unambiguous position in front of the electorate. Good luck to them on that one. The risk of course is that they will either lose seats in the strong traditional heartlands who voted for Brexit. or those in London and the leafy suburbs, who voted remain.

[SUP][/SUP]

Can't see Labour losing seats in its "traditional heatlands" unless they adopt a strong stance of staying inside the single market,which I feel will be unlikely, once push comes a bit nearer to shove ie from September to December next year.

Certainly think it'll be difficult to hang onto Kensington but you never know.:smile:

 

[Uncle Leo]

Took a while to find that name didn't it. Any others google can throw up for you?

Must admit, her name popped in to my head as soon as I saw your post. Caroline Flint would be another.

 

[Lord Football]

So you will be concerned by someone like Jeremy Corbyn then I presume. Unless of course he has experience of 'the bitter end of life' that seems so important to you. Personally, I would struggle to name one MP who has endured the rough end of life but you stick to getting all hot under the collar with the tory ones. The Labour ones must all be martyrs to the cause, whatever that might be.

An MP's salary is £74k pa.
The PM gets £142k pa
Cabinet Ministers get £134kpa
The Leader of the Opposition gets £134k pa

none of these figures include expenses (I believe Corbyn claimed £8.35 last year)

You can find details here.....

http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/

or here (yes, I know its wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaries_of_Members_of_the_United_Kingdom_Parliament


So, for an MP to be a millionaire, they must either have an outside interest or have inherited. What isn't deniable, is that a salary of £74k shouldn't be too difficult to live off. It does make you wonder what on earth Bojo was on when he claimed it wasn't a decent wage (or whatever piffle he spouted).

2/3s of May's pre June 2017 Cabinet were millionaires. Compare this to 2% of the population. So, there is an argument that those who make decisions on our behalf don't understand what not having pots of money is like. There was also an issue regarding the number of Old Etonians in Cameron's cabinet, even Michael Gove was complaining about that. May seems to have watered the numbers down.

I can't find any reliable figures for millionaires in the current or previous Shadow Cabinet, or in the SNP or Lib Dems. (anything written by the UK press, isn't reliable in this respect). Figures probably exist, so if someone finds then it'd be interesting.

However, this really isn't a Brexit issue and that's what the thread is about.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Jeez you big ferkin drama queen. You really do believe your own hyperbole dont you?

Typical left wing ridicule decrying anyone not singing from your same idealogical hymn sheet as uninteligent stupid.

You've hardly made a strong argument in response though. You've just shouted back.

Brexit could end up being a good thing for this country and as we are headed down that road I hope it is, despite having voted 'remain' last June. But forgive me for not having much confidence in useless sorts like David Davis getting us a decent deal.

 

[Bielzibubz]

You've hardly made a strong argument in response though. You've just shouted back.

Brexit could end up being a good thing for this country and as we are headed down that road I hope it is, despite having voted 'remain' last June. But forgive me for not having much confidence in useless sorts like David Davis getting us a decent deal.

You're quite right UL. Silly mistake on my part but I got a little finger happy as it's a very contentious issue and this thread is exasperating at times.

You say you voted remain but also acknowledge that Brexit could indeed end being of benefit to the UK. That is very heartening to read on this thread and perhaps others could learn to see both sides, as I assume you have, instead of relying on entrenched political ideals to form an opinion.

I, like you, tire at times of the apparent mess that certain people have made of the negotiating process but I voted to put them there and I also voted to leave so I, just like everyone else, will just have to put my faith in them that what they eventually get out of it all is broadly along the lines of what I and the majority voted for back in June 2016. I fully understand and always have that compromises will have to be made and if I think that some of those compromises have gone too far and go against what I see was the will of the public then I shall have my say at the next GE, as would I hope everyone else.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You're quite right UL. Silly mistake on my part but I got a little finger happy as it's a very contentious issue and this thread is exasperating at times.

You say you voted remain but also acknowledge that Brexit could indeed end being of benefit to the UK. That is very heartening to read on this thread and perhaps others could learn to see both sides, as I assume you have, instead of relying on entrenched political ideals to form an opinion.

I, like you, tire at times of the apparent mess that certain people have made of the negotiating process but I voted to put them there and I also voted to leave so I, just like everyone else, will just have to put my faith in them that what they eventually get out of it all is broadly along the lines of what I and the majority voted for back in June 2016. I fully understand and always have that compromises will have to be made and if I think that some of those compromises have gone too far and go against what I see was the will of the public then I shall have my say at the next GE, as would I hope everyone else.

But what exactly, did you and the small majority of leave voters, vote for "back in June 2016?"

 

[Bielzibubz]

Ok, I'll bite.

For the UK to be able to control it's own borders.

To be able to set immigration admission quotas if it so wished.

To be able to deport and withhold re-entry to those convicted of a criminal offence committed either here or overseas.

For UK law to have supremacy over and above EU law.

For the UK to be able to set out it's own Bill of Rights and not be mandated to abide by laws it didn't draft through the UK legislative process.

For the UK to be able to trade freely around the globe and pick the best markets that suit it's exported products and not be told by an unelected body who it can trade with and who it can't.

For the UK to be free from regulations and unjust laws that clearly and openly benefit another country to the detriment of the UK population and some of it's industries.

For the UK to eventually be able to re-invest whatever the sum it is currently paying for it's EU membership back into the UK economy where and when it deems necessary and fit to do so.

I could go on and on but I really don't have the time right now. Things to do and people to see n all that but I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Ok, I'll bite.

For the UK to be able to control it's own borders.

To be able to set immigration admission quotas if it so wished.

To be able to deport and withhold re-entry to those convicted of a criminal offence committed either here or overseas.

For UK law to have supremacy over and above EU law.

For the UK to be able to set out it's own Bill of Rights and not be mandated to abide by laws it didn't draft through the UK legislative process.

For the UK to be able to trade freely around the globe and pick the best markets that suit it's exported products and not be told by an unelected body who it can trade with and who it can't.

For the UK to be free from regulations and unjust laws that clearly and openly benefit another country to the detriment of the UK population and some of it's industries.

For the UK to eventually be able to re-invest whatever the sum it is currently paying for it's EU membership back into the UK economy where and when it deems necessary and fit to do so.

I could go on and on but I really don't have the time right now. Things to do and people to see n all that but I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

Thanks for the answer.

I imagine you do realise that if the UK economy continues to grow, then we'll need both unskilled and skilled labour (much of it from inside the EU)?

Also,in order to trade freely with the EU (over 40% of our current export market), UK products will have to conform to existing and future EU standards.

 

[Lord Football]

You're quite right UL. Silly mistake on my part but I got a little finger happy as it's a very contentious issue and this thread is exasperating at times.

You say you voted remain but also acknowledge that Brexit could indeed end being of benefit to the UK. That is very heartening to read on this thread and perhaps others could learn to see both sides, as I assume you have, instead of relying on entrenched political ideals to form an opinion.

I, like you, tire at times of the apparent mess that certain people have made of the negotiating process but I voted to put them there and I also voted to leave so I, just like everyone else, will just have to put my faith in them that what they eventually get out of it all is broadly along the lines of what I and the majority voted for back in June 2016. I fully understand and always have that compromises will have to be made and if I think that some of those compromises have gone too far and go against what I see was the will of the public then I shall have my say at the next GE, as would I hope everyone else.

The real problem we are all going to encounter as we continue our adventure is that our negotiators don't really understand the details, and therefore don't appreciate the complexities.

Example. You can't have a borderless boundary between the EU and UK whilst maintaining control of our border. There isn't an easy (or even very difficult) solution to that. There are a myriad of issues that simply can't be resolved as easily as you are being told.

However, the EU will be keen to get a trade deal of some description with the UK - which will mean following the current legislation - but will also mean there must be some movement on their behalf. It must be remembered that several members states are having to invest serious money into their border authorities to handle the new UK trading position.

I think the final upshot will be that as no one really ever understood what leaving meant or how it works, will be some kind of hybrid system not too dissimilar to what we have now. Ultimately, you may find that as a leaver you are disappointed with the outcomes whereas I as a remainer may be relieved.

Anyhow, the view that "we are where we are" and therefore we have find a result that works, is I think key from now on.
I could pull your later post apart about why you voted out, but what would be the point? We did that 18 months ago. Regardless of how you or I voted, we must all surely want the end result to work in the best interests of the UK.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Hilarious and SO true!
www.facebook.com/courrierinternational.com/videos/1694690477219027/?hc_ref=ARRI3KqUUvAubPQO-k4wTAM7thzHm1nhxR4KBqqRQJSdd5Ff_dnLeQklxsHSEaPcb8I&pnref=story

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

You're quite right UL. Silly mistake on my part but I got a little finger happy as it's a very contentious issue and this thread is exasperating at times.

You say you voted remain but also acknowledge that Brexit could indeed end being of benefit to the UK. That is very heartening to read on this thread and perhaps others could learn to see both sides, as I assume you have, instead of relying on entrenched political ideals to form an opinion.

I, like you, tire at times of the apparent mess that certain people have made of the negotiating process but I voted to put them there and I also voted to leave so I, just like everyone else, will just have to put my faith in them that what they eventually get out of it all is broadly along the lines of what I and the majority voted for back in June 2016. I fully understand and always have that compromises will have to be made and if I think that some of those compromises have gone too far and go against what I see was the will of the public then I shall have my say at the next GE, as would I hope everyone else.

Nice post Bielzibubz and I (as a remainer) concur with your thought.
The problem is that, seeing the country is more or less split down the middle, whomever is in charge is on a hiding to nothing.
We have already seen the different factions spit the proverbial dummy out and my big fear is that the damage to the nationa will never be repaired. Unfortunately for the all, the next GE will be too late as the deal will already have been done.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

The real problem we are all going to encounter as we continue our adventure is that our negotiators don't really understand the details, and therefore don't appreciate the complexities.

Example. You can't have a borderless boundary between the EU and UK whilst maintaining control of our border. There isn't an easy (or even very difficult) solution to that. There are a myriad of issues that simply can't be resolved as easily as you are being told.

However, the EU will be keen to get a trade deal of some description with the UK - which will mean following the current legislation - but will also mean there must be some movement on their behalf. It must be remembered that several members states are having to invest serious money into their border authorities to handle the new UK trading position.

I think the final upshot will be that as no one really ever understood what leaving meant or how it works, will be some kind of hybrid system not too dissimilar to what we have now. Ultimately, you may find that as a leaver you are disappointed with the outcomes whereas I as a remainer may be relieved.

Anyhow, the view that "we are where we are" and therefore we have find a result that works, is I think key from now on.
I could pull your later post apart about why you voted out, but what would be the point? We did that 18 months ago. Regardless of how you or I voted, we must all surely want the end result to work in the best interests of the UK.

It's really difficult, looking through the mire, to see how this is going to work out. I defer to you vastly superior knowledge concerning the negotiating process and accept that it could end up as you describe. Yet, in a way, surely this is lunacy..........all the time money and effort to achieve something that is likely to be an inferior deal to the one we have at the moment. If I try and look objectively at the situation there only appears to be two logical outcomes; either a hard Brexit or no Brexit at all.
Bielzibubz and like minded people set out their views and wishes for Brexit, which are certainly not mine. Freedom features greatly in their desires but surely, entering into trade agreements with other parties will eventually lead to a curtailment of freedom because in all negotiation there has to be give and take. Thus it is perhaps reasonable to ask what conditions they are willing to accept to achieve their aims. A deal with the USA, if I've understood correctly, is likely to mean Chlorinated chickens and opening up the NHS (more!) to american health companies etc. If we want a deal with India, won't that involve a visa system..........not what most Brexiters would wish for. I do get the feeling that some Brexiters believe that we can achieve deals where we dictate terms and arrange things to our advantage, (rather like when we were an old colonial power) just because we are GREAT Britain.........I fear they are going to be in for a big disappointment.
The other question, of course is, how on earth will May sell a deal as you have described to her eurosceptic colleagues. Further to that, what will be the reaction of the general brexit public, when they realise they've been sold a pup and feel betrayed because few of the promises made to them actually come to fruition?

 

[Lord Football]

It's really difficult, looking through the mire, to see how this is going to work out. I defer to you vastly superior knowledge concerning the negotiating process and accept that it could end up as you describe. Yet, in a way, surely this is lunacy..........all the time money and effort to achieve something that is likely to be an inferior deal to the one we have at the moment. If I try and look objectively at the situation there only appears to be two logical outcomes; either a hard Brexit or no Brexit at all.
Bielzibubz and like minded people set out their views and wishes for Brexit, which are certainly not mine. Freedom features greatly in their desires but surely, entering into trade agreements with other parties will eventually lead to a curtailment of freedom because in all negotiation there has to be give and take. Thus it is perhaps reasonable to ask what conditions they are willing to accept to achieve their aims. A deal with the USA, if I've understood correctly, is likely to mean Chlorinated chickens and opening up the NHS (more!) to american health companies etc. If we want a deal with India, won't that involve a visa system..........not what most Brexiters would wish for. I do get the feeling that some Brexiters believe that we can achieve deals where we dictate terms and arrange things to our advantage, (rather like when we were an old colonial power) just because we are GREAT Britain.........I fear they are going to be in for a big disappointment.
The other question, of course is, how on earth will May sell a deal as you have described to her eurosceptic colleagues. Further to that, what will be the reaction of the general brexit public, when they realise they've been sold a pup and feel betrayed because few of the promises made to them actually come to fruition?

Did you know why we are called Great Britain?


I always thought it was some grandisement relating to Empire. It's not. It stems from Roman times where the islands of Britain were Great Britain (ie, the one we live on) and Little Britain (ie, Ireland). So essentially, it means we are bigger than Ireland and nothing more. Haha.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42520480

Adonis quits over Brexit.

"If Brexit happens, taking us back into Europe will become the mission of our children’s generation, who will marvel at your acts of destruction.”

He's right of course.