• Welcome to the ShrimperZone forums.
    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which only gives you limited access.

    Existing Users:.
    Please log-in using your existing username and password. If you have any problems, please see below.

    New Users:
    Join our free community now and gain access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free. Click here to join.

    Fans from other clubs
    We welcome and appreciate supporters from other clubs who wish to engage in sensible discussion. Please feel free to join as above but understand that this is a moderated site and those who cannot play nicely will be quickly removed.

    Assistance Required
    For help with the registration process or accessing your account, please send a note using the Contact us link in the footer, please include your account name. We can then provide you with a new password and verification to get you on the site.

Formula 1 2021

Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
1,786
My first F1 GP was way back in '84 at Brands Hatch and since then there have been dozens of incidents like this. Going back 10 years no one would have given it a second glance.

I'm no big fan of Hamilton but to be fair he was well alongside and either of them could have avoided contact.

If Hamilton had been doing a last of the late brakers like Ricciardo and mistimed it and taken Verstappen out it would have been different .

Yesterday was a racing incident probably apportioned 60% LH 40% MV
 

cerbera45

Coach⭐
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
1,819
The white car on the inside isn't fully alongside the red car, white doesn't yield and collides with the red car (who gives no quarter) taking both of them out. Sound familiar? These so-called "incidents" are as old as the hills.

senna_prost_japan_gp_90-1.jpg
 

Ricey

Scott Forbes No.1 Fan⭐
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Messages
33,887
Location
Braintree
The white car on the inside isn't fully alongside the red car, white doesn't yield and collides with the red car (who gives no quarter) taking both of them out. Sound familiar? These so-called "incidents" are as old as the hills.

senna_prost_japan_gp_90-1.jpg

Would’ve been ok if Hamilton had taken himself out, but the fact is he has gained a massive advantage. That lead that Max had is now gone, yes I’m sure some will say it makes it exciting. It’s not exciting when things are helped in favour of the bloke who wins every single year. The sooner he is out of the sport the better.
 

GrumpyBlue

Director⭐
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
2,723
Location
Devoran, Cornwall
I’ve been watching for 30 years and I know a racing incident and that in my opinion was not one!
I`ve been watching F1 for nearly 50 years and know a racing incident when I see one as well - this was not one - Lewis was a naughty boy channelling his inner Schumacher - the penalty should have been harsher. BTW I am no fan of Verstappen
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
16,250
I’ve been watching for 30 years and I know a racing incident and that in my opinion was not one!

Answer this honestly: is there a chance you're not being objective? We all know you don't like Lewis.

(I've been watching formula 1 for about 45 years. I have no idea if that was a racing incident or not!)
 

Bexley Blue

My butt's for sitting, not for kissing⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
5,369
Location
Bexleyheath, Greater London
There is no doubt in my mind that it was a racing incident which both drivers could have done more to avoid. Regs and steward guidance states that if the overtaking car is more than halfway alongside and inside the car infront when turning into a corner (note: when turning into a corner, not when halfway through the corner, as so many of the misguided fools posting stills of the point of contact would have you believe), then the corner is there to be won and the overtaking car does not have to cede. Hamilton was around 80% alongside on the inside on entry:

IMG_20210718_233242.jpg

Could Hamilton have been further over to the apex? Absolutely, although there is no obligation to be so. He probably went into the corner carrying a bit more speed than he usually would but that's racing, and stewards are supposed to be lenient on this in the opening laps due to high fuel loads and cold tyres. But he could have lifted off and directed his car at the apex more.

Could Verstsppen have done things differently? Without a doubt. Watch the on-board footage as they enter Copse. He corrects left slightly when he spots Hamilton's front wing alongside his cockpit, so he definitely knew he was there and definitely knew LH was 80% alongside him and that the corner therefore wasn't unambiguously Max's.....and yet (again, watch the on-board and aerial footage), he still overcorrects to his right again. He didn't need to turn right that sharply to make the corner as he was already going to make it, so can only assume he did it knowing that Hamilton was there or assuming he had backed out. The latter wouldn't surprise me as MV has a habit of being overly aggressive and bullying/intimidating other drivers into backing off. His father and the combo of Horner and Marko at Red Bull have instilled this horrible entitled attitude into him where he enters every duel effectively saying "back out or we'll crash". Hamilton has backed out of 2 already this season, at Portimão and at Imola. Good on him for standing up to it this time. He probably felt a bit bolshy after MV's pretty unsavoury game of chicken as he tried to bump wheels with Hamilton at 150mph down Wellington straight.

People harping on about how much room LH had inside him - how much space did MV have outside!? He simply didn't need to turn in and cut slightly across LH in the way that he did.

20210720_234017.jpg

Both could have done more to prevent it, so racing incident for me. Those calling for harsher penalties don't seem to know how the regulations and penalty system work. Stewards don't take into account consequences of an on-track incident - consequences aren't known before the incident, and to do so would muddy the waters and make things ambiguous. Leaving MV's crash aside, stewards obviously felt Hamilton's manoeuvre was worthy of a 10 second time penalty. I don't even think it was worthy of that, but it certainly wasn't worth harsher.

Oh, and Christian 'Karen' Horner's and Helmut 'Helmet' Marko's comments about Hamilton after the race were unacceptable. I really want to like Red Bull, but their upper management make it really difficult to do so.
 

Ricey

Scott Forbes No.1 Fan⭐
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Messages
33,887
Location
Braintree
Answer this honestly: is there a chance you're not being objective? We all know you don't like Lewis.

(I've been watching formula 1 for about 45 years. I have no idea if that was a racing incident or not!)
Maybe slightly, but I’m also getting fed up of him getting away with this ****. He always does and everything falls in his favour. Like Mercedes and the ‘tyre mix up’ with George Russell.

I also don’t get the whole hes British you MUST support him attitude. Does he race for Great Britain? No! He races for one person and one person only and that is himself. I have been a fan of British drivers I’ve also not liked other British drivers. I like drivers for their personality and racing style. Love Sergio Perez, Fernando Alonso, Lando Norris, George Russell and I do actually like Max. Daniel Ricciardo is another one. I really dislike Lance Stroll and Pierre Gasly. Nothing anyone says can convince me to like Hamilton. He’s a good driver with the best car. We’ve seen previously when the car isn’t as good he struggles. He’s had it all on a plate and I respect drivers who’ve had to work their way to a big team not given it. The likes of Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Raikkonen all world champs who weren’t chucked in the best car on the grid in their rookie season. They all had to work their nuts off to prove they deserved a drive in a great car.
 

Ricey

Scott Forbes No.1 Fan⭐
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Messages
33,887
Location
Braintree
There is no doubt in my mind that it was a racing incident which both drivers could have done more to avoid. Regs and steward guidance states that if the overtaking car is more than halfway alongside and inside the car infront when turning into a corner (note: when turning into a corner, not when halfway through the corner, as so many of the misguided fools posting stills of the point of contact would have you believe), then the corner is there to be won and the overtaking car does not have to cede. Hamilton was around 80% alongside on the inside on entry:

View attachment 16213

Could Hamilton have been further over to the apex? Absolutely, although there is no obligation to be so. He probably went into the corner carrying a bit more speed than he usually would but that's racing, and stewards are supposed to be lenient on this in the opening laps due to high fuel loads and cold tyres. But he could have lifted off and directed his car at the apex more.

Could Verstsppen have done things differently? Without a doubt. Watch the on-board footage as they enter Copse. He corrects left slightly when he spots Hamilton's front wing alongside his ****pit, so he definitely knew he was there and definitely knew LH was 80% alongside him and that the corner therefore wasn't unambiguously Max's.....and yet (again, watch the on-board and aerial footage), he still overcorrects to his right again. He didn't need to turn right that sharply to make the corner as he was already going to make it, so can only assume he did it knowing that Hamilton was there or assuming he had backed out. The latter wouldn't surprise me as MV has a habit of being overly aggressive and bullying/intimidating other drivers into backing off. His father and the combo of Horner and Marko at Red Bull have instilled this horrible entitled attitude into him where he enters every duel effectively saying "back out or we'll crash". Hamilton has backed out of 2 already this season, at Portimão and at Imola. Good on him for standing up to it this time. He probably felt a bit bolshy after MV's pretty unsavoury game of chicken as he tried to bump wheels with Hamilton at 150mph down Wellington straight.

People harping on about how much room LH had inside him - how much space did MV have outside!? He simply didn't need to turn in and cut slightly across LH in the way that he did.

View attachment 16214

Both could have done more to prevent it, so racing incident for me. Those calling for harsher penalties don't seem to know how the regulations and penalty system work. Stewards don't take into account consequences of an on-track incident - consequences aren't known before the incident, and to do so would muddy the waters and make things ambiguous. Leaving MV's crash aside, stewards obviously felt Hamilton's manoeuvre was worthy of a 10 second time penalty. I don't even think it was worthy of that, but it certainly wasn't worth harsher.

Oh, and Christian 'Karen' Horner's and Helmut 'Helmet' Marko's comments about Hamilton after the race were unacceptable. I really want to like Red Bull, but their upper management make it really difficult to do so.
It’s all subjective, you’re on Hamilton’s side and I’m sure there is a way of explaining it that is not on Hamilton’s side. Verstappen was ahead and had the racing line, there was no way that Hamilton could’ve made it into that corner without tagging him.

Think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The bloke has gained a massive advantage and if he wins the world title by a race win then he’ll have a massive asterisk next to it. Just like his first title win when his best mate moved over to let him past to win on the final lap.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
16,250
Maybe slightly, but I’m also getting fed up of him getting away with this ****. He always does and everything falls in his favour. Like Mercedes and the ‘tyre mix up’ with George Russell.

I also don’t get the whole hes British you MUST support him attitude. Does he race for Great Britain? No! He races for one person and one person only and that is himself. I have been a fan of British drivers I’ve also not liked other British drivers. I like drivers for their personality and racing style. Love Sergio Perez, Fernando Alonso, Lando Norris, George Russell and I do actually like Max. Daniel Ricciardo is another one. I really dislike Lance Stroll and Pierre Gasly. Nothing anyone says can convince me to like Hamilton. He’s a good driver with the best car. We’ve seen previously when the car isn’t as good he struggles. He’s had it all on a plate and I respect drivers who’ve had to work their way to a big team not given it. The likes of Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Raikkonen all world champs who weren’t chucked in the best car on the grid in their rookie season. They all had to work their nuts off to prove they deserved a drive in a great car.

The rest was unnecessary. It's exactly what I would have expected you to say!
 

Bexley Blue

My butt's for sitting, not for kissing⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
5,369
Location
Bexleyheath, Greater London
It’s all subjective, you’re on Hamilton’s side and I’m sure there is a way of explaining it that is not on Hamilton’s side. Verstappen was ahead and had the racing line, there was no way that Hamilton could’ve made it into that corner without tagging him.

Think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The bloke has gained a massive advantage and if he wins the world title by a race win then he’ll have a massive asterisk next to it. Just like his first title win when his best mate moved over to let him past to win on the final lap.
I think you've kind of answered the question there. If there is a way to explain it that takes blame off Hamilton, then it's probably not as cut and dry as you think. All the Verstappen fans and anti-Hamiltons on social media would have you believe it's 100%, unambiguously Hamilton’s fault. Clearly that's not the case as if it was, even the most hardened Hamilton fan would struggle to defend him.
 

Bexley Blue

My butt's for sitting, not for kissing⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
5,369
Location
Bexleyheath, Greater London
N
Maybe slightly, but I’m also getting fed up of him getting away with this ****. He always does and everything falls in his favour. Like Mercedes and the ‘tyre mix up’ with George Russell.

I also don’t get the whole hes British you MUST support him attitude. Does he race for Great Britain? No! He races for one person and one person only and that is himself. I have been a fan of British drivers I’ve also not liked other British drivers. I like drivers for their personality and racing style. Love Sergio Perez, Fernando Alonso, Lando Norris, George Russell and I do actually like Max. Daniel Ricciardo is another one. I really dislike Lance Stroll and Pierre Gasly. Nothing anyone says can convince me to like Hamilton. He’s a good driver with the best car. We’ve seen previously when the car isn’t as good he struggles. He’s had it all on a plate and I respect drivers who’ve had to work their way to a big team not given it. The likes of Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Raikkonen all world champs who weren’t chucked in the best car on the grid in their rookie season. They all had to work their nuts off to prove they deserved a drive in a great car.
Nobody's saying you have to like Hamilton just because he's British, but I think it's fair to say that you are pretty blinded by your hatred of him and unable to give him the credit he deserves. It is pretty clear that he is better than simply a 'good' driver and his championship battles with Massa and Vettel are your proof that he hasn't always had the best car.

Of course he struggles when the car isn't as good......as does every F1 driver. F1 is predominantly about the car, and the disparities in performance between midfield teams and top teams is too big to be completely bridged by a driver, because that's the way F1 is at the moment. But excellent drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen earn the opportunities to drive the best cars, and are able to put an underperforming car in a position that's above its level.
 

GrumpyBlue

Director⭐
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
2,723
Location
Devoran, Cornwall
The stewards decided it was Lewis`s fault - that`s why he got a penalty - it`s just that it was too lenient in my view. It doesn`t take away the fact that it was a magnificent recovery drive by him.
 

Bexley Blue

My butt's for sitting, not for kissing⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
5,369
Location
Bexleyheath, Greater London
The fact we are arguing over whether it was verstappens fault or Hamilton's with both sides putting good cases forward, makes it clear to me it was a racing incident.
That, right there, is basically it. Stewards had to be seen to give some sort of punishment out because of Karen Horner's hysterical bed-wetting nonsense. It was a slap on the wrist but even that was probably more than was warranted.

The stewards decided it was Lewis`s fault - that`s why he got a penalty - it`s just that it was too lenient in my view. It doesn`t take away the fact that it was a magnificent recovery drive by him.
They deemed him to be 'predominantly' at fault, which means they saw MV as having played his role in the incident too. Can't punish him though as his race was already wrecked. I suspect they wouldn't have punished LH either had he retired too. You're letting the consequence (the heavy-looking nature of MV's crash) cloud your judgement re. severity of penalty. What LH actually did on track in isolation (which is how the stewards should and do look at it) was barely worthy of a 5-second penalty, let alone 10. Contrast stewards' language in the judgement with that in the past where they have literally judged other drivers to be 'wholly at fault' in other incidents.
 

pottster

Schoolboy⭐
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
420
I mean whatever next two racing drivers trying to over take each and battling for the championship, trying to make the sport exciting. What a time to be alive.
 

Bexley Blue

My butt's for sitting, not for kissing⭐
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
5,369
Location
Bexleyheath, Greater London
Paaaaaahahahahahahaha. The outcome of Red Bull's appeal hearing. I can't believe they used Alex Albon's tyre test to have him drive simulations of Hamilton's lines and try to submit it as evidence.....I can't get over what a bunch of sad sacks they are! I would love to know what the "allegations" are in their letter which have "concerned" the FIA, but I think I can guess. If Merc and Hamilton don't sue their arses off for defamation and libel, then they're better people than I am. RBR should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. 20210729_210125.jpg20210729_210128.jpg
 

Ricey

Scott Forbes No.1 Fan⭐
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Messages
33,887
Location
Braintree
Paaaaaahahahahahahaha. The outcome of Red Bull's appeal hearing. I can't believe they used Alex Albon's tyre test to have him drive simulations of Hamilton's lines and try to submit it as evidence.....I can't get over what a bunch of sad sacks they are! I would love to know what the "allegations" are in their letter which have "concerned" the FIA, but I think I can guess. If Merc and Hamilton don't sue their arses off for defamation and libel, then they're better people than I am. RBR should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. View attachment 16274View attachment 16275

And you honestly don’t think Toto and his gang of Merry men wouldn’t have done the same if the shoe was on the other foot.
 
Top