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Question McCormack and Laurent

Grant and Jeff do the same job in slightly different ways, out of the two of them I prefer Jeff as for me, he's more consistent and stronger. If Sawyer was less of a concern, because, let's face it, there has to be something that prevents Tilly from using him much, then I'd almost be advocating having him being given a free role in a 4-4-1-1 line up, with Laurent wide on the right of midfield giving additional presence up top, BUT he has to play better than what we've seen so far in the cameos we've had.

The midfield you lot seem to want is too inexperienced and would get found out, you need the wilyness and fortitude of Macca but there's a lot here can't see past what went on last season. Just remind me, who was on the wing when Sawyer and Jeff were in the middle? HRK on one side and Betsy on the other? So, two wingers then, what do Macca and Jeff have to cope with? Two CMs attempting to play as wingers who both have homing devices for the middle third of the pitch. Obvious isn't it?

Inexperience?

Sounds to me like you are desperately trying to come up with reasons to justify your indefensible position. Despite Macca's balding pate, he isn't actually that experienced and he certainly doesn't play with experience if you mean a cool head, hence the high booking count and tendency to lash widely over when in a good position. If by experience you mean his ability to buy fouls, he is very much Grant's inferior. Does his experience help him retain possession? Not if that pass in the first minute yesterday is anything to go by.

Why do you mention the midfield of HRK-Sawyer-Jeff-Betsy? As an example of a midfield with too little experience, or a midfield that worked?
 
Inexperience?

Sounds to me like you are desperately trying to come up with reasons to justify your indefensible position. Despite Macca's balding pate, he isn't actually that experienced and he certainly doesn't play with experience if you mean a cool head, hence the high booking count and tendency to lash widely over when in a good position. If by experience you mean his ability to buy fouls, he is very much Grant's inferior. Does his experience help him retain possession? Not if that pass in the first minute yesterday is anything to go by.

Why do you mention the midfield of HRK-Sawyer-Jeff-Betsy? As an example of a midfield with too little experience, or a midfield that worked?

No chance. I mention that midfield combo because that's the period the anti Macca brigade seem to cite as being their other "dream team", so just reminding what the outlets actually were for the two CMs at that time.

And he's vastly more experienced, how can you think not? Card count, well, we've had this one time and time again, yes, he's hot headed but Grant (who apparently isn't) and Jeff have as bad a record. Buying fouls? Well, I thought we were having a big dig at him on here very recently for his play acting? Grant is typically Chelsea like in his trying to extract free kicks, I don't consider that an attribute. Macca is fiery, there are plenty of other players around and always have been with a similar temperament. They too have attracted their critics.

Some you like, some you don't, I'm convinced that half the reason you lot are all so anti is because I argue so much in his favour.
 
And I notice you choose not to respond to the other points I made.

Ok, I'll go through it...

Grant and Jeff do the same job in slightly different ways, out of the two of them I prefer Jeff as for me, he's more consistent and stronger.

This point is much of a muchness, both Grant and JFC do there jobs in the squad, but a point will come when the midfield will have to be better balanced. We can't have JFC and Grant in the squad if it means also using McCormack as it negates the purpose of the other midfielder, usually Moussa, as he recieves next to no support from his counterparts.

If Sawyer was less of a concern, because, let's face it, there has to be something that prevents Tilly from using him much
At first, it may have been a lack of match fitness, but as I understand it Sawyer has been tremendous in midfield for the Stiffs and was essential in the build-up to Laurent's chance yesterday. Now, he finds himself on the bench because McCormack hasn't been dropped.

then I'd almost be advocating having him being given a free role in a 4-4-1-1 line up, with Laurent wide on the right of midfield giving additional presence up top, BUT he has to play better than what we've seen so far in the cameos we've had.
If anybody should be given that role, it's Freedman... But as has been made quite clear, he's not a 90 minute player anymore. Barnard recieves little support as it is, that move would just isolate him further and he'd be kicked o bits by the tougher defences.

The midfield you lot seem to want is too inexperienced and would get found out, you need the wilyness and fortitude of Macca but there's a lot here can't see past what went on last season.
As YB pointed out, Macca hardly shows the experience or cool-headedness of an experienced midfielder when he's rampaging across the pitch flying into needless challenges and arguing with officials. There was no experience on display either when it was clear the tactics weren't working and there was certainly no experience on show when Laurent missed that chance.
Grant and JFC, in my opinion, have played enough professional games now (Having both been at Prem clubs before us) to be considered experienced enough to cater for in our midfield, especially at this standard of football. Moussa wasn't "experienced" when he came into the squad, but has came on leaps and bounds and is now an integral member of the squad.

The midfield you seem to want is designed to cater for a player who has been lacklustre at best this season, even reckless at times, and to me seems to be in a comfort zone.

Just remind me, who was on the wing when Sawyer and Jeff were in the middle? HRK on one side and Betsy on the other? So, two wingers then, what do Macca and Jeff have to cope with? Two CMs attempting to play as wingers who both have homing devices for the middle third of the pitch. Obvious isn't it?

That's not their fault then, is it? Surely our lack of wide players would be Tilson's fault. When we won this league we played a much narrower midfield than many and were more solid for it... But, we also had Gower as a creative influence which balanced the midfield. We need a player like Sawyer who can create chances for the forwards or we're simply playing negative football, asking for a result like yesterday.

Some you like, some you don't, I'm convinced that half the reason you lot are all so anti is because I argue so much in his favour.
You really aren't that important...
 
No chance. I mention that midfield combo because that's the period the anti Macca brigade seem to cite as being their other "dream team"

Do they? Can you point out one example of where people cite that midfield as our dream team?

And he's vastly more experienced, how can you think not?

McCormack has made 136 league starts (including his spell in Scotland). He is hardly that experienced.

His big match experience is comparable to that of say Moussa's. He isn't a Freedman (top flight football, international football), Prior (six or seven (?) seasons in the top flight, top half of Prem finishes, UEFA Cup football, beating Bayern Munich away from home) or a Maher (300+ games, play-off finals, two LDV finals, two promotions).


Card count, well, we've had this one time and time again, yes, he's hot headed but Grant (who apparently isn't) and Jeff have as bad a record.

Yellow cards this season:

McCormack 4
Christophe 2 (+1 red ref said he got wrong)
Grant 3

Shouldn't McCormack's experience mean less cards?

Buying fouls? Well, I thought we were having a big dig at him on here very recently for his play acting? Grant is typically Chelsea like in his trying to extract free kicks, I don't consider that an attribute. Macca is fiery, there are plenty of other players around and always have been with a similar temperament. They too have attracted their critics.

Grant's play-acting isn't an attribute, but McCormack's diving and fieryness is?

I only suggested buying fouls as an area where experience could play a role. If it isn't this, or any of the other reasons I have suggested, why is experience such an advantage?

Some you like, some you don't, I'm convinced that half the reason you lot are all so anti is because I argue so much in his favour.

The reason I go on about McCormack's weaknesses so much is to try and counter the factual inaccuracies you keep on coming up with. If someone says something that is blatantly wrong, I'll try and correct it.
 
Oh look, word by word analysis! :clap: You are spoiling me boys! :D You carry on thinking what you like as will I.
 
my take is this,

Macca is my mate and my favourite southend player, he knows when hes **** he knows when hes good, regardless of my high regards for him, I dont hink he has been effective this year as he previously has been. The reason why your all so upset with him is that he actually is a damned good player and by not perforing to this level leaves us all frustrated. Personally speaking our midfield is a meer shadow of that of 2-3 seasons ago, and you lot that think im wrong will be in the cucckooo house long before me. I still rate macca and I know hes as frustrated as many of you about his performances he is a player that will always wear his heart on his sleave and I do know FACT that he was absolutely made up when he was made vise captain last year, footballs all about playing your strongest 11 hes a pro he knows hes playing for his position, personnally I dont feel we are in a strong enough position squad wise to be playing sawyer, as we are such a fragile unit and there needs to be some sort of strong head, but I strongly believe we should be looking to field our strongest 11 and if thats not with what we have got then we should go and get someone who can make the difference, anyway even if he had his legs cut off on a saturday night and still played on the tuesday I now he would be giving his all and as long as he is giving his all then we cant ask for anymore,it falls in the managers eyes to pick the team
 
my take is this,

Macca is my mate and my favourite southend player, he knows when hes **** he knows when hes good, regardless of my high regards for him, I dont hink he has been effective this year as he previously has been. The reason why your all so upset with him is that he actually is a damned good player and by not perforing to this level leaves us all frustrated. Personally speaking our midfield is a meer shadow of that of 2-3 seasons ago, and you lot that think im wrong will be in the cucckooo house long before me. I still rate macca and I know hes as frustrated as many of you about his performances he is a player that will always wear his heart on his sleave and I do know FACT that he was absolutely made up when he was made vise captain last year, footballs all about playing your strongest 11 hes a pro he knows hes playing for his position, personnally I dont feel we are in a strong enough position squad wise to be playing sawyer, as we are such a fragile unit and there needs to be some sort of strong head, but I strongly believe we should be looking to field our strongest 11 and if thats not with what we have got then we should go and get someone who can make the difference, anyway even if he had his legs cut off on a saturday night and still played on the tuesday I now he would be giving his all and as long as he is giving his all then we cant ask for anymore,it falls in the managers eyes to pick the team

Cockles, we don't often see eye to eye but thank you for that. I also know how he felt when Clarke was given the armband last year when Barrett was out, and people had expected it to be him. I don't think people quite appreciate how much he does wear his heart onhis sleeve sometimes.

I should imagine he is as frustrated as everybody else about yesterday but I still think it's completely unfair to make him a scapegoat.
 
Otherwise known as "I've ran out of tired, faulted arguments to back him, so I'll just stop it".

No, not at all - this thread was about Laurent and Macca and as usual it's developed into a "have a pop at Macca" thread. I can't be bothered to spend ages looking for facts and figures to back up my arguments, I found the figures for you before on discipline I know. As for YB's asking where people cite that midfield quartet as their "dream team", well, admittedly dream team was a pun on his team's name last night, but by the nature of the fact that people have repeatedly kept saying how good Sawyer and Jeff were together, then that has to have implications on the remaining members of that midfield.

I repeat myself over and over again on the subject, and just thought doing so again now was completely pointless.
 
my take is this,

Macca is my mate and my favourite southend player, he knows when hes **** he knows when hes good, regardless of my high regards for him, I dont hink he has been effective this year as he previously has been. The reason why your all so upset with him is that he actually is a damned good player and by not perforing to this level leaves us all frustrated. Personally speaking our midfield is a meer shadow of that of 2-3 seasons ago, and you lot that think im wrong will be in the cucckooo house long before me. I still rate macca and I know hes as frustrated as many of you about his performances he is a player that will always wear his heart on his sleave and I do know FACT that he was absolutely made up when he was made vise captain last year, footballs all about playing your strongest 11 hes a pro he knows hes playing for his position, personnally I dont feel we are in a strong enough position squad wise to be playing sawyer, as we are such a fragile unit and there needs to be some sort of strong head, but I strongly believe we should be looking to field our strongest 11 and if thats not with what we have got then we should go and get someone who can make the difference, anyway even if he had his legs cut off on a saturday night and still played on the tuesday I now he would be giving his all and as long as he is giving his all then we cant ask for anymore,it falls in the managers eyes to pick the team

I think the reason McCormack isn't playing as well as in previous seasons is because his skills don't complement the rest of the midfield as well as they did. When we were in the championship (and indeed our play-off winning season) we had the guile and skill of Maher and Gower and we needed the steel and drive of a McCormack.

This midfield is now too workmanlike, which is why we need a more skilful player so Moussa doesn't have to do it all. It's not because McCormack is a bad player, it's because other players are better fits for this team at the moment. It's all about the balance and the balance at the moment is wrong.
 
What we really need is Grant the enforcer in the middle of the park with Sawyer the creator next to him, Moussa to stay on the wing, he has been a revelation there. As for RM, a talented fast player who is prepared to take players on, tho where we can get one of those from, I have no idea.
 
Otherwise known as "I've ran out of tired, faulted arguments to back him, so I'll just stop it".

Indeed.

I've come up with hard facts to counter her spurious arguments but she still refuses to consider the possibility that the TEAM might be better off with Sawyer ahead of McCormack.
 
always said barney needs to be threaded through with the killer ball, its no use booting it up to him as he will never score. although i do rate macca i simple think he goes for the easy option of sideways way too much which isn't going to help strikers. that is why sawyer would suit our style of play more. he always looks for the killer ball and our strikers react to that.

that said sawyer didn't actually do anything yesterday but i mean this is based on many performances. macca just looks to predictable and to comptable to go sideways. find it very annoying personally.

and also agree i don't think he's in a posistion to judge considering the amount of time he skys a good chance or gives the ball away countless times over the season so far.

do find it annoying when he screams at others when i just don't think he can say so.
 
Indeed.

I've come up with hard facts to counter her spurious arguments but she still refuses to consider the possibility that the TEAM might be better off with Sawyer ahead of McCormack.

"Her", "she"? Bloody hell, I'd have thought you knew my name by now! I too have come up with hard facts in the past, I simply can't be bothered today. I've said plenty of times I'd like to see Sawyer playing alongside McCormack, what is it that you don't understand about that?
 
"Her", "she"? Bloody hell, I'd have thought you knew my name by now! I too have come up with hard facts in the past, I simply can't be bothered today. I've said plenty of times I'd like to see Sawyer playing alongside McCormack, what is it that you don't understand about that?

Eh? It's fairly standard to use personal pro-nouns in English when the context makes clear who you are referring to.

I wasn't referring to playing Sawyer alongside McCormack. I was suggesting playing him Sawyer INSTEAD OF McCormack.
 
Why are you Two giving OBL such a hard time ? Macca does seem to be her favourite player, so she is bound to stick up for him. He is playing crap at the moment, but we have seen enough of him to know that at his best he is a very good Championship standard player and can be very influential.

Getting back to the original point in the post, he is totally out of order having a go at certain team mates and the manner in which he dishes it out, especially when playing crap himself.
 
What we really need is Grant the enforcer in the middle of the park with Sawyer the creator next to him, Moussa to stay on the wing, he has been a revelation there. As for RM, a talented fast player who is prepared to take players on, tho where we can get one of those from, I have no idea.

Why not stick Scannell there?
 
Why are you Two giving OBL such a hard time ? Macca does seem to be her favourite player, so she is bound to stick up for him. He is playing crap at the moment, but we have seen enough of him to know that at his best he is a very good Championship standard player and can be very influential.

Getting back to the original point in the post, he is totally out of order having a go at certain team mates and the manner in which he dishes it out, especially when playing crap himself.

Because sheOBL refuses to admit when sheOBL is wrong and keeps on coming up with more spurious reasons which are just asking to be knocked down. That offends my sense of logic, although I must admit I'm intrigued to see if she'd OBL would ever admit that McCormack was in the wrong.
 
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