Migrant boat deaths in the Med.

[Tangled up in Blue]

So what's the answer? Stop all migration of non EUs to the country? Build large walls and man them with troops and police? Sooner or later we have to be part of a solution which solves the base causes of this flood of people.[/QUOTE



if need be then yes,reports suggest that over 1 million people are on the move from third world countries,how many of those fancy living in Britain?

The answer obviously lies in EU help.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33750336

 

[RHB]

The answer obviously lies in EU help.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33750336

I think it is far more complex than involving the EU only. The issues currently affecting the Third World countries are of a global nature. All of the major Super Powers of the world should now be using maximum diplomatic efforts to curb the wars and genocides that are forcing so many to flee their homes. That will undoubtedly involve more time, effort and money than we are prepared to invest at the moment, so all of the unrest will smoulder on and more will leave their homes looking for safety.

 

[callan]

So what's the answer? Stop all migration of non EUs to the country? Build large walls and man them with troops and police? Sooner or later we have to be part of a solution which solves the base causes of this flood of people.

Alternative would be to stop free movement from the EU as we know they are not in any danger in their countries of origin and purely allow those in that are in danger... that way perhaps our services and infrastructure could cope.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Alternative would be to stop free movement from the EU as we know they are not in any danger in their countries of origin and purely allow those in that are in danger... that way perhaps our services and infrastructure could cope.

(As you know full well), that wouldn't be possible unless the UK were to leave the EU,which won't happen after the British public vote Yes in the referendum.

Meanwhile,the whole problem is surely that immigrants from Calais are trying to enter the UK illegally rather than legally?

 

[callan]

(As you know full well), that wouldn't be possible unless the UK were to leave the EU,which won't happen after the British public vote Yes in the referendum.

Meanwhile,the whole problem is surely that immigrants from Calais are trying to enter the UK illegally rather than legally?

You appear to have side stepped the issue of those in need versus those that aren't.....how can it be right that we have endless space for those from Europe and yet those in greater need struggle to get in?

 

[londonblue]

You appear to have side stepped the issue of those in need versus those that aren't.....how can it be right that we have endless space for those from Europe and yet those in greater need struggle to get in?

I don't think any issue has been side stepped. It seems to me that TUIB has just pointed out your solution is purely hypothetical because it can't happen if we're in the EU, and is therefore a non-starter (at least for the time being).

As it happens I also think TUIB has hit the nail on the head here. What we're actually discussing is illegal immigration, which by its very nature shouldn't be allowed to happen.

It would be sensible to recognise this is a separate issue to people seeking legal immigration, and asylum.

 

[Sandbach Shrimper]

Good to see that the billions of pounds we throw away in foreign aid every year is helping the third world...

#tradenotaid

 

[mrsblue]

Good to see that the billions of pounds we throw away in foreign aid every year is helping the third world...

#tradenotaid

Now now,we have to keep the dictators and generals in the luxury they are accustomed too !

 

[Benfleet A1]

Sites like this are a huge help to the problem.

http://w2eu.info/france.en/articles/france-asylum.en.html

 

[southendkid]

I blame the Daily Mail, their exaggerated stories of immigrants living like kings off benefits might anger their target market but it also makes us sound like the best place to flee to. We need to send a few doom and gloom articles about welfare cuts from The Guardian to balance it out.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Slightly off topic I'll admit but I heard from a young German student last week (a friend of our younger daughter's) that Germany, which has a pretty good rep.for taking in asylum seekers and immigrants, actually cuts off all benefits, free language classes etc to all those over 25 years of age.

Thought that this deserved a bit more publicity.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Slightly off topic I'll admit but I heard from a young German student last week (a friend of our younger daughter's) that Germany, which has a pretty good rep.for taking in asylum seekers and immigrants, actually cuts off all benefits, free language classes etc to all those over 25 years of age.

Thought that this deserved a bit more publicity.

Without a doubt lots of countries have stricter benefits systems than the UK. And I am sure they also don't have huge legal aid bills being paid to the likes of Cherie Blair to argue superfluous cases to Strasbourg and thwart the sovereign nation's own legal systems.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I don't think any issue has been side stepped. It seems to me that TUIB has just pointed out your solution is purely hypothetical because it can't happen if we're in the EU, and is therefore a non-starter (at least for the time being).

As it happens I also think TUIB has hit the nail on the head here. What we're actually discussing is illegal immigration, which by its very nature shouldn't be allowed to happen.

It would be sensible to recognise this is a separate issue to people seeking legal immigration, and asylum.

fair post BUT when the illegal immigrant steps into the UK and claims asylum (not having previously claimed it elsewhere in the EU) then he or she is NO LONGER illegal and has an official status change to Asylum Seeker. If he/she had claimed elsewhere then they can be sent back to that country - be it France, Italy etc.
How do they know this? the smugglers tell them, their peers tell them AND the officials, gendarmes etc in those other countries tell them AND are happy for them to make it to the UK as their first, OFFICIAL, arrival destination.
Simple problem to solve it isn't but it does help if the basics are understood and reported properly.

 

[londonblue]

Good to see that the billions of pounds we throw away in foreign aid every year is helping the third world...

#tradenotaid

Now now,we have to keep the dictators and generals in the luxury they are accustomed too !

That's why there are "trade not aid" type campaigns.

 

[londonblue]

fair post BUT when the illegal immigrant steps into the UK and claims asylum (not having previously claimed it elsewhere in the EU) then he or she is NO LONGER illegal and has an official status change to Asylum Seeker. If he/she had claimed elsewhere then they can be sent back to that country - be it France, Italy etc.
How do they know this? the smugglers tell them, their peers tell them AND the officials, gendarmes etc in those other countries tell them AND are happy for them to make it to the UK as their first, OFFICIAL, arrival destination.
Simple problem to solve it isn't but it does help if the basics are understood and reported properly.

I'm certainly no lawyer, but my understanding is that you're still illegal until you've been granted asylum. Asking for it may change your status, but you're still illegal. It is very difficult to prove your case on seeking asylum, and if you fail you'll be sent back to where you came from. From that angle it is a huge risk, because most of these people (if they claimed asylum) would fail, and end up back where they started.

It would be less of a gamble to try and get smuggled in and disappear, which is what they are trying. These people are illegal, plain and simple.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I'm certainly no lawyer, but my understanding is that you're still illegal until you've been granted asylum. Asking for it may change your status, but you're still illegal. It is very difficult to prove your case on seeking asylum, and if you fail you'll be sent back to where you came from. From that angle it is a huge risk, because most of these people (if they claimed asylum) would fail, and end up back where they started.

It would be less of a gamble to try and get smuggled in and disappear, which is what they are trying. These people are illegal, plain and simple.

They are illegal until they claim asylum, then they are Asylum Claimants, if they succeed (very unlikely in most cases) they get temporary leave to remain. To be successful they need to be fleeing some human rights issue; not for financial gain but to save their lives. If they are rejected then they can (and will) appeal for years on legal aid until they get to have been here so long they then claim they have family ties etc here so need to stay or the rights would be screwed.
There are only the three recognised status's for these people.
if you go back in the thread I asked if the RN would register them when they "saved" them in the med and deposited them in Italy as that would then preclude them from claiming here.
Trust me, I know this stuff!

 

[mrsblue]

Two interesting items,

First,male migrants aged 21 are lying about their age and are being put into schools with pupils aged as young as 11 within the Kent area.

Second,Taxi drivers in Dover are earning £1200 per week ferrying migrants to London !

 

[londonblue]

They are illegal until they claim asylum, then they are Asylum Claimants, if they succeed (very unlikely in most cases) they get temporary leave to remain. To be successful they need to be fleeing some human rights issue; not for financial gain but to save their lives. If they are rejected then they can (and will) appeal for years on legal aid until they get to have been here so long they then claim they have family ties etc here so need to stay or the rights would be screwed.
There are only the three recognised status's for these people.
if you go back in the thread I asked if the RN would register them when they "saved" them in the med and deposited them in Italy as that would then preclude them from claiming here.
Trust me, I know this stuff!

I'm sure you do. But be honest, how many of these people will claim asylum, and how many of the ones that fail will actually appeal? That is too much of a gamble because to do so you have to make yourself known to the authorities, and without a good reason to claim asylum they will fail. It's less of a gamble to smuggle yourself in, and hope you get lost. The vast majority of these people won't take the risk of claiming asylum, and will therefore stay illegal (assuming they make it here in the first place).

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The figures being given out are official figure based on the persons claiming - and if that is alarming then I am also, as I believe you are, that the numbers NOT claiming are more than those that do.
Other "non" figures are those who get reject asylum and "disappear before any deportation.
Further is the huge number who are designated as to be deported yet don't go as the Border Agency have not got the resources/funding/directives to do the removals or a fraction of the backlog.

 

[londonblue]

The figures being given out are official figure based on the persons claiming - and if that is alarming then I am also, as I believe you are, that the numbers NOT claiming are more than those that do.
Other "non" figures are those who get reject asylum and "disappear before any deportation.
Further is the huge number who are designated as to be deported yet don't go as the Border Agency have not got the resources/funding/directives to do the removals or a fraction of the backlog.

Most of that seems to be an issue with funding for the system...