New Contracts

[Kris]

Quote[/b] (moneypit23 @ June 21 2005,15:59)]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 21 2005,00:50)]Long term injuries are part of professional football. Southend offered Smith a contract for the season and he took it. It isn't his fault he suffered a relapse and has been unable to play this season. At the end of his contract he is free to do what he likes.

We don't know what sort of contract Southend have  offered Jay for next season. If Bristol Rovers can offer him more money and first team football then I won't blame him for leaving.

I'd do exactly the same thing. Anyone that thinks differently is either still at school, isn't paying for the roof over their head or simply looks at life with SUFC tinted specs on.

*IF* Jay leaves then he has let no one down. Southend United are not a benevolent fund and if Tilson had known Jay would be injured for the whole season there is no way he would have been offered a contract last year in the first place.

Excellent post - agree 100%.

I agree too. I wouldn't blame Jay if he thought a change of scenery might bring him better luck. We also don't know Tilly's thinking - it might be that he's told Jay he would be behind Bentley and Guttridge in the midfield pecking order if he was to sign.

BUT - I still really, really want Jay to stay. I'm probably not alone in thinking we would have won League 2 had he been fit for even half of the season because he has the subtlety and variation in his play that can open up the tightest of defences. We'll certainly need that in League 1.

Ultimately, we've still yet to see anything concrete from our end about Jay supposedly rejecting his offer so until we do, I don't think it's fair to make rash judgements about his future. As long as he's been offered a fair deal, I think he'll probably sign again.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (moneypit23 @ June 21 2005,15:59)]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 21 2005,00:50)]Long term injuries are part of professional football. Southend offered Smith a contract for the season and he took it. It isn't his fault he suffered a relapse and has been unable to play this season. At the end of his contract he is free to do what he likes.

We don't know what sort of contract Southend have offered Jay for next season. If Bristol Rovers can offer him more money and first team football then I won't blame him for leaving.

I'd do exactly the same thing. Anyone that thinks differently is either still at school, isn't paying for the roof over their head or simply looks at life with SUFC tinted specs on.

*IF* Jay leaves then he has let no one down. Southend United are not a benevolent fund and if Tilson had known Jay would be injured for the whole season there is no way he would have been offered a contract last year in the first place.

Excellent post - agree 100%.

I'm not sure I agree.  In any walk of life, there is such a thing as integrity.  Jay was brought to Southend United to play football.  Through no fault of his own, Jay has been injured.

But the fact remains that he has not done enough of the thing he was brought to Southend to do - and that's play football.

Were he to walk away from Southend now for the sake of a few dollars more, it would not go unnoticed.  Were Jay to be injured at his new club, then can you see anyone else taking him on?  He would have, by then, obtained the (perhaps unwarranted) reputation of someone who takes a club's shilling to lie on the treatment table - and then who moves on once he's fit to whichever club wafts the biggest pay-cheque under his nose.

Call it karma, call it moral obligation, call it honesty and decency... but Jay has been extremely well-treated by the club, who have done everything to get him fit again... and again.  This may be controversial, coming from a lawyer, but the decent thing would be to ignore the black & white of his employment contract, and for Jay instead to repay the loyalty shown to him by the club by giving us a season of his fully-fit ability.

That's what I'd like to happen, at any rate.

Matt

 

[Shrimper_JH]

And I don't think its unfair to ask for anymore than that Matt

 

[Mad Cyril]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ June 21 2005,18:22)]I'm not sure I agree.  In any walk of life, there is such a thing as integrity.  Jay was brought to Southend United to play football.  Through no fault of his own, Jay has been injured.

But the fact remains that he has not done enough of the thing he was brought to Southend to do - and that's play football.

Were he to walk away from Southend now for the sake of a few dollars more, it would not go unnoticed.  Were Jay to be injured at his new club, then can you see anyone else taking him on?  He would have, by then, obtained the (perhaps unwarranted) reputation of someone who takes a club's shilling to lie on the treatment table - and then who moves on once he's fit to whichever club wafts the biggest pay-cheque under his nose.

Call it karma, call it moral obligation, call it honesty and decency... but Jay has been extremely well-treated by the club, who have done everything to get him fit again... and again.  This may be controversial, coming from a lawyer, but the decent thing would be to ignore the black & white of his employment contract, and for Jay instead to repay the loyalty shown to him by the club by giving us a season of his fully-fit ability.

That's what I'd like to happen, at any rate.

Matt

Where have the club shown any loyalty?

They were obliged to pay him. Just because he is a decent player and looks like he may soon be match fit doesn't mean that he owes us any debt of gratitude. Out of contract is out of contract.

 

[overseas shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 22 2005,05:27)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ June 21 2005,18:22)]I'm not sure I agree.  In any walk of life, there is such a thing as integrity.  Jay was brought to Southend United to play football.  Through no fault of his own, Jay has been injured.

But the fact remains that he has not done enough of the thing he was brought to Southend to do - and that's play football.

Were he to walk away from Southend now for the sake of a few dollars more, it would not go unnoticed.  Were Jay to be injured at his new club, then can you see anyone else taking him on?  He would have, by then, obtained the (perhaps unwarranted) reputation of someone who takes a club's shilling to lie on the treatment table - and then who moves on once he's fit to whichever club wafts the biggest pay-cheque under his nose.

Call it karma, call it moral obligation, call it honesty and decency... but Jay has been extremely well-treated by the club, who have done everything to get him fit again... and again.  This may be controversial, coming from a lawyer, but the decent thing would be to ignore the black & white of his employment contract, and for Jay instead to repay the loyalty shown to him by the club by giving us a season of his fully-fit ability.

That's what I'd like to happen, at any rate.

Matt

Where have the club shown any loyalty?

They were obliged to pay him. Just because he is a decent player and looks like he may soon be match fit doesn't mean that he owes us any debt of gratitude. Out of contract is out of contract.

You both have a point. Mr. Mad, you're argument is one based on hard facts... whilst MtS bases his side on moral issues.

 

[N'Zamba Legend]

Mad Cyril is an existentialist

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (overseas shrimper @ June 22 2005,07:16)]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 22 2005,05:27)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ June 21 2005,18:22)]I'm not sure I agree.  In any walk of life, there is such a thing as integrity.  Jay was brought to Southend United to play football.  Through no fault of his own, Jay has been injured.

But the fact remains that he has not done enough of the thing he was brought to Southend to do - and that's play football.

Were he to walk away from Southend now for the sake of a few dollars more, it would not go unnoticed.  Were Jay to be injured at his new club, then can you see anyone else taking him on?  He would have, by then, obtained the (perhaps unwarranted) reputation of someone who takes a club's shilling to lie on the treatment table - and then who moves on once he's fit to whichever club wafts the biggest pay-cheque under his nose.

Call it karma, call it moral obligation, call it honesty and decency... but Jay has been extremely well-treated by the club, who have done everything to get him fit again... and again.  This may be controversial, coming from a lawyer, but the decent thing would be to ignore the black & white of his employment contract, and for Jay instead to repay the loyalty shown to him by the club by giving us a season of his fully-fit ability.

That's what I'd like to happen, at any rate.

Matt

Where have the club shown any loyalty?

They were obliged to pay him. Just because he is a decent player and looks like he may soon be match fit doesn't mean that he owes us any debt of gratitude. Out of contract is out of contract.

You both have a point. Mr. Mad, you're argument is one based on hard facts... whilst MtS bases his side on moral issues.

Today's edition of Where’s (or who's the) Wally?

Today's edition has two Shrimpers arguing a popular case in front of the ShrimperZone jury.

Cyril backs his case up with hard facts...

Matt uses emotive arguments based on 'the right thing to do'...

Which ones the lawyer??

 

[Banksy]

Quote[/b] (Kris @ June 21 2005,17:31)]

Quote[/b] (moneypit23 @ June 21 2005,15:59)]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 21 2005,00:50)]Long term injuries are part of professional football. Southend offered Smith a contract for the season and he took it. It isn't his fault he suffered a relapse and has been unable to play this season. At the end of his contract he is free to do what he likes.

We don't know what sort of contract Southend have  offered Jay for next season. If Bristol Rovers can offer him more money and first team football then I won't blame him for leaving.

I'd do exactly the same thing. Anyone that thinks differently is either still at school, isn't paying for the roof over their head or simply looks at life with SUFC tinted specs on.

*IF* Jay leaves then he has let no one down. Southend United are not a benevolent fund and if Tilson had known Jay would be injured for the whole season there is no way he would have been offered a contract last year in the first place.

Excellent post - agree 100%.

I agree too. I wouldn't blame Jay if he thought a change of scenery might bring him better luck. We also don't know Tilly's thinking - it might be that he's told Jay he would be behind Bentley and Guttridge in the midfield pecking order if he was to sign.

BUT - I still really, really want Jay to stay. I'm probably not alone in thinking we would have won League 2 had he been fit for even half of the season because he has the subtlety and variation in his play that can open up the tightest of defences. We'll certainly need that in League 1.

Ultimately, we've still yet to see anything concrete from our end about Jay supposedly rejecting his offer so until we do, I don't think it's fair to make rash judgements about his future. As long as he's been offered a fair deal, I think he'll probably sign again.

A fit Jay would not be behind Gutteridge - Tilly's one mistake IMHO (remember the bottled header)! But I stand to be corrected - I know nothing.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (Banksy @ June 22 2005,09:49)]Gutteridge - Tilly's one mistake IMHO (remember the bottled header)! But I stand to be corrected.

A tad harsh but I know what you're getting at - he hasn't set the world alight.

However, I think Guttridge and others might actually be more suited to League One than League Two. There are a few less cloggers in League One. Not very scientific analysis granted, but then none of us has seen much of either Guttridge or League One so its slightly hypothetical. He could turn out to be a dud.

Tilly's record is good though, so lets give him the benefit of the doubt

 

[moneypit23]

Quote[/b] (Spaceman Spiff @ June 22 2005,09:44)]

Quote[/b] (overseas shrimper @ June 22 2005,07:16)]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 22 2005,05:27)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ June 21 2005,18:22)]I'm not sure I agree.  In any walk of life, there is such a thing as integrity.  Jay was brought to Southend United to play football.  Through no fault of his own, Jay has been injured.

But the fact remains that he has not done enough of the thing he was brought to Southend to do - and that's play football.

Were he to walk away from Southend now for the sake of a few dollars more, it would not go unnoticed.  Were Jay to be injured at his new club, then can you see anyone else taking him on?  He would have, by then, obtained the (perhaps unwarranted) reputation of someone who takes a club's shilling to lie on the treatment table - and then who moves on once he's fit to whichever club wafts the biggest pay-cheque under his nose.

Call it karma, call it moral obligation, call it honesty and decency... but Jay has been extremely well-treated by the club, who have done everything to get him fit again... and again.  This may be controversial, coming from a lawyer, but the decent thing would be to ignore the black & white of his employment contract, and for Jay instead to repay the loyalty shown to him by the club by giving us a season of his fully-fit ability.

That's what I'd like to happen, at any rate.

Matt

Where have the club shown any loyalty?

They were obliged to pay him. Just because he is a decent player and looks like he may soon be match fit doesn't mean that he owes us any debt of gratitude. Out of contract is out of contract.

You both have a point. Mr. Mad, you're argument is one based on hard facts... whilst MtS bases his side on moral issues.

Today's edition of Where’s (or who's the) Wally?

Today's edition has two Shrimpers arguing a popular case in front of the ShrimperZone jury.  

Cyril backs his case up with hard facts...

Matt uses emotive arguments based on 'the right thing to do'...

Which ones the lawyer??

Pretty much what I was going to say.  We'd all obviously like Jay to stay, but he has to do what he feels is right for his future.

In any profession if you are a contractor then you're free to move on when your contract expires. Just because football is an emotional experience for us fans, it's a job to the players. If you're not happy in your job, or you feel you are worth more, you look elsewhere.

 

[Einstein]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ June 22 2005,04:27)]Where have the club shown any loyalty?

They were obliged to pay him. Just because he is a decent player and looks like he may soon be match fit doesn't mean that he owes us any debt of gratitude. Out of contract is out of contract.

Shown him loyalty by not bringing his contract to an end through a 'mutual agreement'. Had SUFC taken this avenue, then we would probably have saved around half of his contract. Jay would have been on the treatment table on his own paying his own way.

So yes I agree that it's time for Jay to show some mutual loyalty.

 

[moneypit23]

Quote[/b] (Einstein @ June 22 2005,10:10)]Shown him loyalty by not bringing his contract to an end through a 'mutual agreement'.   Had SUFC taken this avenue, then we would probably have saved around half of his contract.

It's not about loyalty - Southend have a vested interest in that they want to keep him because of his ability. I wouldn't mind betting that if it was a lesser player they may well have taken that view.

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Spaceman Spiff @ June 22 2005,09:54)]However, I think Guttridge and others might actually be more suited to League One than League Two. There are a few less cloggers in League One. Not very scientific analysis granted, but then none of us has seen much of either Guttridge or League One so its slightly hypothetical. He could turn out to be a dud.

Along the lines of Gavin Strachan then who for us was worse than dire but was instrumental in Hartlepool's playoff season!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (moneypit23 @ June 22 2005,12:11)]

Quote[/b] (Einstein @ June 22 2005,10:10)]Shown him loyalty by not bringing his contract to an end through a 'mutual agreement'.   Had SUFC taken this avenue, then we would probably have saved around half of his contract.

It's not about loyalty - Southend have a vested interest in that they want to keep him because of his ability.  I wouldn't mind betting that if it was a lesser player they may well have taken that view.

For what benefit? His contract is up now that he's fit again - and it was known when he last went down with injury that he would remain injured for the rest of his contract...

What possible benefit would there be to the club in keeping his contract going for the duration of his injury to see him walk away when it expires? His ability wouldnt come into it then! His ability only comes into it in as much as they would like to keep him and they hope that by honouring his contract he would show some loyalty and try to pay the club back once fit.

Which comes backto the loyalty and honour arguments.

Basically this is the crux of it. Either you believe in behaving honourably or you believe its every man for himself and rightly so. If the second of those options is your preferred way of working then its a sad indictment of people's attitudes today

 

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Spaceman Spiff @ June 22 2005,12:17)]Basically this is the crux of it. Either you believe in behaving honourably or you believe its every man for himself and rightly so. If the second of those options is your preferred way of working then its a sad indictment of people's attitudes today  

Absolutely agree 100%.

Unfortunately, I have a hunch Jay may take option 2 (or more accurately his Mr 10% (20%?) will steer him in that direction.

 

[mcrabb]

I may have this completely wrong - I've never been entirely sure of the Bosman ruling - but isn't Jay still in the age bracket that would mean any club signing him up would have to pay us some compensation?

I expect to be corrected, but I thought this was the case. That certainly might put off some clubs if it is the case.

But in reference to the other discussions I agree that the club isn't being unreasonable in expecting a certain degree of loyalty from the players. If a company treats you well then why shouldn't you stay, rather than leave for a bit more money to another company that could treat you fairly poorly.

Unless it would be to play at a higher level I don't think Jay will leave.

 

[Napster]

Quote[/b] (mcrabb @ June 22 2005,12:31)]Unless it would be to play at a higher level I don't think Jay will leave.

ditto. Jay's not stupid.

 

[Einstein]

Quote[/b] (moneypit23 @ June 22 2005,12:11)]

Quote[/b] (Einstein @ June 22 2005,10:10)]Shown him loyalty by not bringing his contract to an end through a 'mutual agreement'.   Had SUFC taken this avenue, then we would probably have saved around half of his contract.

It's not about loyalty - Southend have a vested interest in that they want to keep him because of his ability.  I wouldn't mind betting that if it was a lesser player they may well have taken that view.

Personally players who leave for more money - Why not?

I work for a large accountants firm and if a rival came in and offered me more money I'd most probably be off like a shot. Same as most of us.

Mark Rawle? Yes I'd probably be very much like him walking out for more money.

However, on this occasion I do not think it's just about money.  Southend stood by Jay Smith and basically could have completely screwed up his career.  Not just the money paying Jay, but the amount of time John Standard has probably invested, is another salary in itself.

Self gain?  Yes of course we're not doing it because we're a 'nice club'.  It's because we're a business and we need assets like Jay.

The amount time and effort the club (John Standard personally) has put into Jay Smith's career to try and turn it around is staggering.

If I was Jay now, I'd feel guilty if I threw everything back in the face of a club who could not have done much more to help.  There is very little loyalty and guilt left in football now days, but if Jay leaves it would sum up that there is absolutely none.

 

[Kris]

Quote[/b] (mcrabb @ June 22 2005,12:31)]I may have this completely wrong - I've never been entirely sure of the Bosman ruling - but isn't Jay still in the age bracket that would mean any club signing him up would have to pay us some compensation?

I expect to be corrected, but I thought this was the case. That certainly might put off some clubs if it is the case.

But in reference to the other discussions I agree that the club isn't being unreasonable in expecting a certain degree of loyalty from the players. If a company treats you well then why shouldn't you stay, rather than leave for a bit more money to another company that could treat you fairly poorly.

Unless it would be to play at a higher level I don't think Jay will leave.

You're right, I think. Jay is 23 and I'm pretty sure anyone under 24 still commands a fee under the Bosman ruling.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (Napster @ June 22 2005,12:35)]

Quote[/b] (mcrabb @ June 22 2005,12:31)]Unless it would be to play at a higher level I don't think Jay will leave.

ditto. Jay's not stupid.

We dont know that though do we? He hasn't signed yet... and we know Rovers were interested... and look at Joe Keith for an example of someone who was quite happy to drop a division for a little bit more money...

I wouldn't be surprised if Bristol Rovers have offered him more money than us (if they've got as far as actually making an offer). If thats the case then Cody will advise that he joins them, and it will then be only down to Jay's loyalty if he stays with us.