religious

[Mad Cyril]

I would be interested as to what percentage of practicing christians spontaneously decided to start worshipping god as opposed to those who had christianity enforced on them as a child or were converted by evangelists (no doubt during some moment of personal disaster).

If there is an omnipotent god why did christianity not spring up independently amongst all the far flung peoples of the world?

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

I would be interested as to what percentage of practicing christians spontaneously decided to start worshipping god as opposed to those who had christianity enforced on them as a child.

An interesting choice of word! My parents certainly didn't "enforce" it on me at all - my Dad is an agnostic, my Mum a methodist.

We've all grown up in an Anglican tradition to a greater or lesser extent. We've probably all been to a church, and I went to schools where the church was a central part of school life.

But I didn't get confirmed until I was 22 years old, and that was a definite choice of mine - something I decided to do after pondering it for some time.

So, I'm at neither ends of your spectrum, but somewhere in the middle.

Matt

 

[fredheim_holm]

I'm not 'religious' at all.

But I do believe in the big G-O-D and do go to Church every Sunday morn.

 

[BrettieAngell]

I'm not 'religious' at all.

But I do believe in the big G-O-D and do go to Church every Sunday morn.

erm, so you are religious then?

 

[fredheim_holm]

Also I'd just like to add:

For those that believe you Christians are fools for believing something wholly based on faith and no fact, then you are wrong. I've been reading a book recently on a guy who tried to disprove Christianity, researched it and took the opinion of the TOP legal people in America, like the head of the judges or whatever. He found out that there is over 24,000 manuscripts backing up what the Bible says, and to make a comparison to other facts, the 2nd most evidenced piece of literature had 600 manuscripts backing it up.

Also, they've managed to date the writing of the gospels to within 60AD I think it was. That means that when these books were written, anyone who wished to disprove it could easily have gone straight to the tomb and show the body, or simply say he never lived if he didn't.

There's also the fact that the Roman Guard were protecting it, the ones who would be killed if they fell asleep on duty. So it's hardly likely that a rabble of 12 maniacs managed to sneak past 12 or so Roman guards (there wasn't just one or two, it's most likely that they would send a whole group, as they had a few on guard whilst the others slept), push a boulder that's been estimated to weigh 1.5-2tonnes out of the way and then run away with Jesus body.

I'm not claiming to know all the answers, I'm just presenting the historical facts! Of course none of this is 100%, but it's as close as you're gonna get for a historical piece.



The main point of this post which I've missed out until now is, that many athiests believe that they don't believe on faith, they believe on hard facts. That's simply not true. In every logic there is a place where someone puts their faith. Believing that we are here by chance is a much greater leap of faith then believing a book that has massive historical backing.

Just my thoughts.

 

[fredheim_holm]

erm, so you are religious then?

Nah, I'm not religious as such. That's a mould people put you in as they think you're weird, different, holier then holy. That ain't me I'm afraid.

 

[A Century United]

I would be interested as to what percentage of practicing christians spontaneously decided to start worshipping god as opposed to those who had christianity enforced on them as a child or were converted by evangelists (no doubt during some moment of personal disaster).

If there is an omnipotent god why did christianity not spring up independently amongst all the far flung peoples of the world?

Because he chose to use the Disciples and Paul to do that. And in answer to your other point, many, many people have spent their lives looking for God, and have chosen to embrace Chrisitianity at the end of that search.

And your comment

(no doubt during some moment of personal disaster).

surely is as much a statement of your "belief system" as anything that the pro-religion arguers have posted - I would love to see your hard evidence that it always takes a personal disaster for people to want to become Christians.

 

[Cricko]

I find the strange thing about this debate, is that if any of us have lost a loved one,had a broken marriage, lost a job , found ourselves in places in life we would not rather be ..it is staggering the amount of people that will rethink their lives. It is a matter of faith in whatever you believe..I have far to much faith to preach as it were on here....But Yes I do believe in A "God"

Water is Hot and Cold, it has two sides ....but at the end of the day it is still Water.

 

[Napster]

Water is Hot and Cold, it has two sides ....but at the end of the day it is still Water.

But it's not though, is it? It's also ice, or steam. Language obscures real meaning.

 

[Cricko]

But it's not though, is it? It's also ice, or steam. Language obscures real meaning. There in no French word for shallow but that does not mean it does not exist.

Isn't Ice Cold and Steam Hot?

I think that reiterates my point Naps.Nothing is Black and White...all people find their inner peace somewhere.

 

[Napster]

Isn't Ice Cold and Steam Hot?

I think that reiterates my point Naps.Nothing is Black and White...all people find their inner peace somewhere.

Ah, but cold water is not the same as ice.

But yes, I have reiterated your point.

 

[Desert Shrimper]

To accuse people like OBL and Teeside of "sheep like thinking" is unfair and hardly mature debate, is it? I hate getting involved with these threads because, IMHO, the anti-religion stance is defended as blindly and with as little regard to the evidence as they accuse the pro stance of adopting. But three points you have raised:

1. Come off it, no one is saying that Christmas is Jesus real birthday, and yes it is matched to an old pagan festival. So what? Even Christians can be pragmatists, you know.

2. Evidence? I am not going to produce evidence for all faiths, but there is amazingly strong evidence for Jesus as a real historical person. And the prophecies in the Bible concerning him, and the very way his Disciples and Paul behaved after his death, raise questions that need proper debate, not facile dismissal as "sheep like thinking".

3. This is the one that always amazes me. What evidence for Millions of deaths in the name of Religion? More people have died in the last 120 years in wars than in the whole history of humanity. The leaders behind the vast majority of those deaths? Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussein (who only entered a Mosque when he realised he needed to portray himself as a Martyr) and more, and all of them not only not religious, but actually avowed aetheists who tried to wipe out religion. The danger is not religion, but people's hunger for power. And of course a sweeping statement about the dangers of religion ignores the fantastic work done by the Church of England, Sally Army and others for the poor and homeless, by Tearfund, Christian Aid, and many many others for the Third World.

If you are going to argue against religion, please find out what they DO believe in, and study the evidence for that (because it does exist).

This board is supposed to be about opinions and mine is that organised religion is based on sheep-like thinking and killing in the name of religion is about as sheep-like as it gets. I live in the Middle East so I don't hear so much about the Salvation Army but I do hear a lot more about the divisive nature of religion, the restrictions it places on peoples lives and the senseless killing of human beings in it's name. I don't care if you see that view as not being "mature debate" but it's just an opinion. It wasn't intended as a personal dig at OBL or Teesside Shrimper so kindly step away from the high horse.

Oh and if the best evidence you can come up with to support the existence of God is that Jesus existed and and that there are a plethora of other reasons besides religion where people mindlessly kill people then well done. I'd like to hear some more evidence but as has been said before, it seems to offend religious people to be asked to do this...

I'm also aware that religion isn't all bad and that there are plenty of fantastic charitable organisations doing great work around the World. I just think on balance, that in the current climate it divides us more than it brings us together.

 

[Napster]

killing in the name of

f**k you I won't do what you tell me

 

[Cricko]

This board is supposed to be about opinions and mine is that organised religion is based on sheep-like thinking and killing in the name of religion is about as sheep-like as it gets. I live in the Middle East so I don't hear so much about the Salvation Army but I do hear a lot more about the divisive nature of religion, the restrictions it places on peoples lives and the senseless killing of human beings in it's name. I don't care if you see that view as not being "mature debate" but it's just an opinion. It wasn't intended as a personal dig at OBL or Teesside Shrimper so kindly step away from the high horse.

Oh and if the best evidence you can come up with to support the existence of God is that Jesus existed and and that there are a plethora of other reasons besides religion where people mindlessly kill people then well done. I'm also aware that religion isn't all bad and that there are plenty of fantastic charitable organisations doing great work around the World. I just think on balance, that in the current climate it divides us more than it brings us together.

Hear Hear.Organised religion smells worse that the dung of a thousand Camels..Jesus on the other hand did live at some point...IMO people at that time needed to believe in something as we all do sometimes..Son of God....are we not all children of "God" or a greater Power...

 

[Mad Cyril]

Because he chose to use the Disciples and Paul to do that. And in answer to your other point, many, many people have spent their lives looking for God, and have chosen to embrace Chrisitianity at the end of that search.

If you have a quality product why not go global with it rather than rely on a couple of regional sales people or advertising in the Standard Recorder to gradually build up your market share?

The fact that christianity (or indeed any religion) seems to have been spread around the world by human contact does more than anything to convince me that it is nothing more than a product of the human mind.

 

[Cricko]

If you have a quality product why not go global with it rather than rely on a couple of regional sales people or advertising in the Standard Recorder to gradually build up your market share?

The fact that christianity (or indeed any religion) seems to have been spread around the world by human contact does more than anything to convince me that it is nothing more than a product of the human mind.

I doubt you can even be that cynical Cyril..I think this is all taken out of context..The thread title is probably a tad misleading.......I think mostly any religion to start with was okish......Now if you and I started one tomorrow...let's call it God's Children for example.....now within a few weeks we have followers, so now we have to have rules.....people will disagree with us ..and have different opinions/rules.. within a year or so these opinions will become our manifesto...The opposition will then go against what we say and before you can say "Bob's your Uncle" we will be having wars over it ...This is where it all goes to pot...........The saying from a passage in the Bible ..."God has many rooms" is probably wise ...we have factions on the Zone with differing Opinions....It does not make any of us not know the common cause of being on here...that is we are all SUFC fans...To many wars have been fought over religion....they all had the same goal to believe in something their inner self craved.

 

[Reg Martin]

This board is supposed to be about opinions and mine is that organised religion is based on sheep-like thinking and killing in the name of religion is about as sheep-like as it gets. I live in the Middle East so I don't hear so much about the Salvation Army but I do hear a lot more about the divisive nature of religion, the restrictions it places on peoples lives and the senseless killing of human beings in it's name. I don't care if you see that view as not being "mature debate" but it's just an opinion. It wasn't intended as a personal dig at OBL or Teesside Shrimper so kindly step away from the high horse.

Oh and if the best evidence you can come up with to support the existence of God is that Jesus existed and and that there are a plethora of other reasons besides religion where people mindlessly kill people then well done. I'd like to hear some more evidence but as has been said before, it seems to offend religious people to be asked to do this...

I'm also aware that religion isn't all bad and that there are plenty of fantastic charitable organisations doing great work around the World. I just think on balance, that in the current climate it divides us more than it brings us together.

May be you need to define what you would accept as evidence.
May be some 'religious' people are guilty of sheep-like acceptance of God's existence. Speaking for myself, and I know this is also true of other Christians I know, I was forced (metaphorically speaking) to acknowledge God's existence in spite of my own strong wish that he didn't exist and, up until that point, anger and contempt towards people who claimed that he did.
What I am trying to say is that atheists can also be guilty of sheep-like refusal to think and atheism can be a 'faith' that its adherents do not wish to budge from.
ps Baa!

 

[Yer Blues]

i think jesus was the derren brown of his day

 

[Cricko]

i think jesus was the derren brown of his day

I would not disagree in many ways with you Matty..He was an illusionist and maybe people were naive to believe in the magic,but what he preached was without doubt fundamental to everybody .Nothing has changed .....the basis is/was to treat others as you want to be treated yourself and try to Love one another ...

Not a bad Thesis.

 

[fredheim_holm]

If you have a quality product why not go global with it rather than rely on a couple of regional sales people or advertising in the Standard Recorder to gradually build up your market share?

The fact that christianity (or indeed any religion) seems to have been spread around the world by human contact does more than anything to convince me that it is nothing more than a product of the human mind.

That's quite a poor point really Cyril.

What you've just said is, that because Jesus spread the word by word of mouth, by human contact rather then flashing visions or whatever you'd want him to do (not really sure, up to you I suppose) then this is the MAIN downfall of Christianity. He should have done it in flashing colours and massive flash floods of honey. In the time it happened, he was hardly going to send out an e-mail. The thing to note is, that he could have done floods of honey (is my belief, of course) but why would he want to prove himself to man that he is God? God doesn't want man to love him for any other reason then because they want to. For what's the point of love if God has had to prove himself first? Faith is definately key in religion, but it's not the only part.

The amazing thing for me, as this really is the most important debate in the world, that you base the main flaw because he spread word by word of mouth. Surely it's an amazing feat that 12 men spread it to be the best selling book ever? Surely it's more then good marketing..