Shamima Bequm-Return or not ?

[GBJ]

It's unnofficial. People could have voted multiple times, and it's still (roughly) only 0.01% of the adult population of the UK.

Hypothetical, but I’m fairly sure that if there were a Brexit-style Nationwide referendum, the result wouldn’t come out 52:48

 

[rigsby]

So one is allowed a fair trial found guilty, absconds and is allowed back, one is denied a fair trial, is technically innocent , yet is not allowed back.
Regardless of the crime (One is a killer, the other isn't) does the above sound right to you...

As I said in my post , put opinions to one side and show a legal (ish) reason for not allowing her in and then consider the precedent it sets.

I haven't claimed she should not come back. Its just jack Shepherd is not a good comparison.

I also know the failings in the justice system. We brought back Lord Haw-Haw in 1945 and hung him. Of course what ever weak sentence they give her it will be no deterrent to anyone....otherwise she wouldn't want to come back.

Here is god example of why 'international law is an even bigger a*** than our own

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-38614563

 

[Firestorm]

Let’s be fair, UN Countries don’t have to agree/share laws, to be a member state.

Take those two big Countries across the pond, and their right to bare arms. We all know, our Country, (along with the majority of fellow UN Countries) have a very different outlook on guns, from what they do, but nevertheless they’re still Member States of The UN.

The change in law, would be pretty much how you’ve worded It. If you go abroad & engage in terrorist activity, or any acts of treason against this Country, then your British-Issued Passport, will be registered null and void.

The Shepherd case is a different althoughter, from this bint’s. For starters, of the two of them, which one do you think is more desperate to get back to Blighty?



This is the key point. It’s not all about punishing the cow, it’s about presenting a solid deterrent.

I didn't know she was your daughter

Legally its not about who wants to get back , its about why they should not be allowed back. and in this comparison one has not been found guilty by an English court (and was a minor at the time of the offence) and one is a convicted killer, so yes they are different...

And I am unsure of the legalities (or ethics ) about punishment before a fair trail.

I must admit that I am finding the media coverage of this disturbing, its as if certain parts of the media a bleating on about this to cause dissent.
If this girl had been left alone by the media, she would be sitting in a refugee camp, maybe hoping to get home, but with absolutely no means of contact or return

But by finding her, interviewing her and keeping the story on the front page, she now has the opportunity .

As I said before, she found her own way out there , if she can make her own way back, remember she doesn't have a passport, then she can come home to an arrest. but the media have turned this whole thing into a circus

 

[MK Shrimper]

Hypothetical, but I’m fairly sure that if there were a Brexit-style Nationwide referendum, the result wouldn’t come out 52:48

Probably not as the majority of this country are unaware of international law.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

The stuff Shemima Begum is coming out with is not helping her cause and just showing that she still supports I.S. I admire her honesty, but not her thinking. Asked about the Manchester pop concert bombings and murders in which 22 died, she said women and children are being killed in the I.S. right now and it's kind of retaliation, and she said that's a fair justification. OMG. So the Manchester murders were justified.
When she comes back and is put in prison, she should be separated from other women prisoners, so as not to spread her beliefs. She is still radical, and as such is a dangerous person.

 

[MK Shrimper]

This is the key point. It’s not all about punishing the cow, it’s about presenting a solid deterrent.

You really think being exiled from a country that they've been indoctrinated to hate is a deterrent? This "cow" was probably promised an Islamic heaven if she went to Syria. Do you think, if she was told the truth of what would happen when she got there she would have made the journey?

 

[Firestorm]

I haven't claimed she should not come back. Its just jack Shepherd is not a good comparison.

I also know the failings in the justice system. We brought back Lord Haw-Haw in 1945 and hung him. Of course what ever weak sentence they give her it will be no deterrent to anyone....otherwise she wouldn't want to come back.

Here is god example of why 'international law is an even bigger a*** than our own

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-38614563

What wasn't good about the comparison ?

One is a convicted killer in a different country
One is suspected of a crime and in different. country
Both are british citizens

Legally why should one return an not the other ?

 

[GBJ]

Legally its not about who wants to get back , its about why they should not be allowed back. and in this comparison one has not been found guilty by an English court (and was a minor at the time of the offence) and one is a convicted killer, so yes they are different...

I don’t recall anyone saying Shepherd shouldn’t be allowed back though?

I don’t want to downplay Shepherd’s actions (as I think the guy is a degenerate scumbag). But...

One is guilty of manslaughter in a moment of drink-fuelled madness, the other is guilty of aiding and abetting a known, on-going terrorist doctrina, which poses a severe threat, not only to those who directly suffer at its hands, but to our own citizens, aswell.

The difference between them, is one of them needs to pay for their crimes, and the other one of them could still influence future crimes.

And I am unsure of the legalities (or ethics ) about punishment before a fair trail.

In a case where you’ve obtained an admission, you don’t need a trial.

There won’t be a trial with this case, unless her well-documented version of events changes and/or new evidence surfaces.

I must admit that I am finding the media coverage of this disturbing, its as if certain parts of the media a bleating on about this to cause dissent.
If this girl had been left alone by the media, she would be sitting in a refugee camp, maybe hoping to get home, but with absolutely no means of contact or return

But by finding her, interviewing her and keeping the story on the front page, she now has the opportunity .

As I said before, she found her own way out there , if she can make her own way back, remember she doesn't have a passport, then she can come home to an arrest. but the media have turned this whole thing into a circus

I agree with the sentiments. Think it was Rigsby who hit the nail on the head, when he suggested it wouldn’t be long before someone went out there and brought her back, in exchange for the exclusive.

British Media gunna British Media.

Probably not as the majority of this country are unaware of international law.

Hypothetically, if she didn’t have International Law on her side, do you think it would be morally right or wrong to deny her a return?

 

[MK Shrimper]

Hypothetically, if she didn’t have International Law on her side, do you think it would be morally right or wrong to deny her a return?

As I've said she was a brainwashed child whose probably suffered horrific abuse due to the brainwashing. Much like the Brexit thread I've said all I want to so I'm out.

 

[GBJ]

You really think being exiled from a country that they've been indoctrinated to hate is a deterrent?

Err, yes? What better message could you send to these would-be indoctrnees: if you don’t like this country, and don’t want to conform to its social structure & rules, then you’re very much not welcome here.

What kind of deterrent would you prefer, harsh language? A collective eye-roll & a bit of tutting?

This "cow" was probably promised an Islamic heaven if she went to Syria. Do you think, if she was told the truth of what would happen when she got there she would have made the journey?

But she doesn’t regret her decision to go. She liked it there.

If she was begging for forgiveness & showed an ounce of contrition, you could be excused for showing her some compassion.

But she doesn’t think like that. Why are you trying to not only speak for her, but contradict her own admission?

 

[Firestorm]

I don’t recall anyone saying Shepherd shouldn’t be allowed back though?




In a case where you’ve obtained an admission, you don’t need a trial.

There won’t be a trial with this case, unless her well-documented version of events changes and/or new evidence surfaces.




Hypothetically, if she didn’t have International Law on her side, do you think it would be morally right or wrong to deny her a return?

My point exactly...surely as a convicted killer we would not want him back , wouldn't we...but where are the let him rot front pages ? Surely its not because he is a white middle class bit of a lad is it...



She would still have to be given the, she has not given a legally sound admission , under caution with legal advice present, the correct prosecution procedures, Arrest ,Interview ,Charge ,CPS etc.

I think a Newspaper interview is considered heresay as evidence of guilty , however I am guessing it could be admitted in some form of Character establishing element of the prosecution
She would still have to appear in court and plead Guilty,

If there were not an international law which prevents someone from being stateless and therefor a legal citizen of absolutely nowhere, then I imagine we would not even be having this discussion as there , but if we were , I would not see a problem with her returning to the country of her Birth to face justice.

I would not , however, be overly keen on wasting tax payers money to hunt her down down to drag her back to this country to face justice.

Seeking extradition through Interpol and diplomatic routes , maybe , but a difficult trip and extraction Nah...

Mind you that gives her the chance to recruit on line with little chance of punishment.

Perhaps its better to have her somewhere we can watch , and further punish if required , rather than her becoming an untouchable jihadi internet superstar

 

[GBJ]

As I've said she was a brainwashed child whose probably suffered horrific abuse due to the brainwashing. Much like the Brexit thread I've said all I want to so I'm out.

Lol you’re not a politician, you can give a straight answer you know.

Also, this “child” line is baffling me. Weren’t you one of the people advocating 16-year-olds should have had the vote, or is that just for overturning Brexit purposes?

 

[MK Shrimper]

Lol you’re not a politician, you can give a straight answer you know.

Also, this “child” line is baffling me. Weren’t you one of the people advocating 16-year-olds should have had the vote, or is that just for overturning Brexit purposes?

Yes she should be allowed back (and face prosecution). When she left the UK she was 15 which in law, makes her a child, and I really have no idea what the relevance of your second statement has.

And with that, I am definitely out.

 

[GBJ]

My point exactly...surely as a convicted killer we would not want him back , wouldn't we...but where are the let him rot front pages ? Surely its not because he is a white middle class bit of a lad is it...

Because he’s not stranded somewhere, asking to be allowed back (effectively asking for help)

FWIW, if he had asked, then I reckon he’d have got a similar response to this one.

She would still have to be given the, she has not given a legally sound admission , under caution with legal advice present, the correct prosecution procedures, Arrest ,Interview ,Charge ,CPS etc.

I think a Newspaper interview is considered heresay as evidence of guilty , however I am guessing it could be admitted in some form of Character establishing element of the prosecution
She would still have to appear in court and plead Guilty,

Of course you’re correct.

My point was, after being arrested and charged, no trial will be needed, unless she pleads not guilty.

She’s already confessed enough (you’re right, that won’t be admissible) to the point it’ll be difficult for her to go back on that. I doubt her lawyers would advise it anyway.

If there were not an international law which prevents someone from being stateless and therefor a legal citizen of absolutely nowhere, then I imagine we would not even be having this discussion as there , but if we were , I would not see a problem with her returning to the country of her Birth to face justice.

I would not , however, be overly keen on wasting tax payers money to hunt her down down to drag her back to this country to face justice.

Seeking extradition through Interpol and diplomatic routes , maybe , but a difficult trip and extraction Nah...

Mind you that gives her the chance to recruit on line with little chance of punishment.

Perhaps its better to have her somewhere we can watch , and further punish if required , rather than her becoming an untouchable jihadi internet superstar

It’s all well and good facing justice, the problem arises when you realise that justice is weak. She faces up to 10 years. IF she got the full sentence, she’d serve 5. And that’s a big IF. I reckon if she does a stretch, it’ll be minimal, about 18-months.

She’s going to become a Jihadi superstar regardless, if/when she returns.

The extremists will have a field day with it.

 

[Firestorm]

Because he’s not stranded somewhere, asking to be allowed back (effectively asking for help)

FWIW, if he had asked, then I reckon he’d have got a similar response to this one.

The extremists will have a field day with it.

.

True , but she was saying that to a journalist who had gone out of his way to find her

Whilst our justice system was actively seeking this killer out . With public support and that of the victims family , to go and get him.

Now I don't have a problem with us bringing this killer home to face the consequences of his actions.
But I don't have a problem with bringing any British citizen home to face British justice


"The extremists will have a field day with it."

Both sides of the fence. Which ever way this goes, the media have poked the hornets nest with a very ****ty stick

 

[rigsby]

What wasn't good about the comparison ?

One is a convicted killer in a different country
One is suspected of a crime and in different. country
Both are british citizens

Legally why should one return an not the other ?

To use a term from the courts, Is it in the publc interest to pursue the case.

Shepherd, yes..... Bequm, no

 

[GBJ]

Yes she should be allowed back (and face prosecution). When she left the UK she was 15 which in law, makes her a child, and I really have no idea what the relevance of your second statement has.

And with that, I am definitely out.

Haha you know full well what the relevance is.

I’ll wait.....

 

[Cricko]

One woman who chose to join some rebel group and fu**ed up and we now have a national debate about her whilst our own are living on the streets and in poverty.

The mind boggles.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I’ll wait.....

I'm out.

 

[Cricko]