Shamima Bequm-Return or not ?

[GBJ]

I know many who have.

Come on now, you know anecdotal evidence isn’t allowed on here.

 

[GBJ]

Some might not like it but she should be allowed to return if she can and face justice. She has the right to be heard in a court of law and answer for her crimes. This could start a dangerous precedent where the government just strips people of their nationality because they don't like them and think they are the wrong sort of people for our country.

The issue isn’t whether the government like them or not. That’s disingenuous to say the least.

If it sets a precedent that violent criminals, such as rapists, peadophiles, murderers, terrorists etc aren’t welcome here, is that a bad thing?

If I go into a supermarket & steal, the chances are I’ll be prosecuted & banned from going back to that supermarket.

If I cause havoc on a flight, I’m prosecuted & banned from flying with that airline.

The doughnut who jumped off of a cruise ship the other day - prosecuted & banned from that cruise line.

Is it any different to suggest that if you’re a visitor to this Country, and you can’t abide by the most basic of laws, that you shouldn’t be prosecuted & shown the door?

Bottom line, those type of people, are wrong for this Country.

If we could also get shot of the British people who commit those crimes, then we’d really have cracked it.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

I know many who have.

Are you talking male or female?

 

[rigsby]

Strange how the people who insist we must respect any laws or 'rights' didn't mention a word when Tommy Robinson was imprisoned on fraud charges and not only sent to the category A prison but placed on the very same wing as 4 muslims who had been convicted of attempting to murder him.

Or what about him spending 21 weeks in solitary when the maximum is 4 weeks.....They moved him 5 times to get round the rules.

If they do that to Shamima Bequm when she is found guilty we will have endless MP's and rent-a-mob screaming from the roof tops.

We are a nation known for its fair play. That's all most of us, including vulnerable girls from Rochdale and Rotherham want.......That includes what offends the left, just be consistent please.

 

[GBJ]

Sorry SNB, do you know this family because you seem to think they were happy for this to happen
Any parent would protect their child and yes she was totally wrong in her actions, I dont think anyone would disagree and yes she has come out with terrible statements re beheadings and not thinking Manchester was wrong. but end of the day she was 15, brain washed, immature and maybe very mixed up

Papers like Sun are loving it, stirring up patriot fever, personally this could be an own goal, donot often agree with Ken Clarke, but his words were very wise and should be noted

Not a rant at you SNB, but I dont feel as a parent they would have been happy, if I am wrong, I will apologise to you and buy you a few rounds of ale at next game home or away

I struggle with the term brainwashed.

The term brainwashed is a human-made concept, that allows us to reason for things that we can’t grasp ourselves.

In this case, we all find her actions abhorrent. The only way someone could do something like that, is if they’ve been brainwashed.

But in her mind, she hasn’t done anything wrong, as per her own admission.

She just sees things differently to us. She has a different ideaology to us. She doesn’t live or abide by our rules.

Would rehabilitation (which is just another way of saying brainwashing her back to our way of thinking) actually work? I have my doubts, as she displays signs of someone who is so entrenched in her views, that she isn’t ready to give them up, no matter how hard you try.

Talk of morals & ethics surrounding what should be done with her, but she’s not the only one who has rights in this scenario. What about OUR rights to be safe?

 

[Blueronron]

Ok perhaps brain washed is wrong word to use, can we say easily lead at such a young age

Some 15 years are street wise and more adult in their ways, whilst others are immature

I donot agree in any way with the way she choose to lead her life, but I think we need to look deeper, perhaps her family were not ideal in the way they brought her up (Neither you, me or anyone will know except the family), but I know at 15 I thought I knew everything and when I was 16-18, the adults were so wrong ( No i didnt want to fight for an extremist army, before you ask)
Did she see heads in bins ,maybe its only her word and maybe the bravo of facing the cameras has now gone. did she really think Britain would take her back with open arms and forget so easy, seems to me like a child in a woman's body
I would like to have a qualified person to examine her mentality and assess the position, rather than people like us who read stuff to suit, then maybe we can truly understand the position.
If decided she is really still believing in her cause, then steps must be taken to ensure she is never allowed to mingle and preach the hatred

If we become like those we are fighting then I think we are no better

Manchester was so wrong, but I bet the majority of those who have lost loved ones and the pain will never go away, would say she deserves a second chance if and its a big if she can realise how wrong her life was in ISIS

Could I forgive if I lost a child, I would like to think so ( But at the moment I havent lost anyone close to a terrible bombing/stabbing) but then my kids have always been brought up to understand compassion and its only a small majority that make the headlines when things are evil

 

[pottster]

The issue isn’t whether the government like them or not. That’s disingenuous to say the least.

If it sets a precedent that violent criminals, such as rapists, peadophiles, murderers, terrorists etc aren’t welcome here, is that a bad thing?

If I go into a supermarket & steal, the chances are I’ll be prosecuted & banned from going back to that supermarket.

If I cause havoc on a flight, I’m prosecuted & banned from flying with that airline.

The doughnut who jumped off of a cruise ship the other day - prosecuted & banned from that cruise line.

Is it any different to suggest that if you’re a visitor to this Country, and you can’t abide by the most basic of laws, that you shouldn’t be prosecuted & shown the door?

Bottom line, those type of people, are wrong for this Country.

If we could also get shot of the British people who commit those crimes, then we’d really have cracked it.

Totally agree with you but all the evidence you cited the persons were given a day in court and handed a sentence. With this individual she has been stripped of her citizenship without a day in court.

 

[pottster]

Who gives anyone 'rights'....We do, the people and if others abuse them we can remove them and there's nothing dangerous about that. Just ask any parents of those girls in Manchester.

I agree with you we give people rights and can remove them but you need due process and that means a day in court

 

[GBJ]

I donot agree in any way with the way she choose to lead her life, but I think we need to look deeper, perhaps her family were not ideal in the way they brought her up (Neither you, me or anyone will know except the family),

Agreed, we can’t know for sure.

What we can do, is look at the factors around her.

The school she went to, had (to my knowledge) at least one other male pupil who fled to Syria to join ISIS. So, that’s 4 pupils from that school who we know for a fact, had been radicalised. Therefore, I have no doubt in saying that the school is failing.

We know the father, of one of the other girls, had taken his daughter on demo’s. It safe to say, he was a particular influence in her life, could he also have been an influence in Begum’s life? How close was he to Begum’s parents? That’s a question for the authorities.

The Prevent Agency, failed miserably. They knew the girl was being, or had been radicalised. They instructed the school, who in turn, sent Begum’s parents a letter. Only they decided that the best form of delivery of said letter, was to give it to Begum to hand over. Another glowing endorsement for that School.

did she really think Britain would take her back with open arms and forget so easy, seems to me like a child in a woman's body

Without being too blunt, yes. This country is known as a softy, especially when it comes to justice. On top of that, we also have a rife victim culture, where anyone & everyone can sell their sob-story and make a few quid. Remember, in her interview, she thought that the British public would/should have sympathy for her.

If decided she is really still believing in her cause, then steps must be taken to ensure she is never allowed to mingle and preach the hatred

How do you do that? Keep her locked up indefinitely, Guantanamo style? I’m not saying I’d disapprove, but I’m sure plenty would.

Let’s say she does her prison sentence, and untold hours of councelling/rehab, but still holds those deep-rooted feelings. What then? Another person to add to the already unwatched watchlist?

If we become like those we are fighting then I think we are no better

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Remember, these people aren’t playing/fighting by the same rules as we are. In boxing terminology, we’re operating under Queensbury rules, and they’re street fighting.

Manchester was so wrong, but I bet the majority of those who have lost loved ones and the pain will never go away, would say she deserves a second chance if and its a big if she can realise how wrong her life was in ISIS

Could I forgive if I lost a child, I would like to think so ( But at the moment I havent lost anyone close to a terrible bombing/stabbing) but then my kids have always been brought up to understand compassion and its only a small majority that make the headlines when things are evil

Mate, I commend your sentiments, you’re far more noble & patient a man I’ll ever be.

But I can’t help but read this derisively. I’m sorry, it’s nothing personal, it’s just that is rubbish mate. You honestly believe the parents of small murdered children, would want this POS given another chance? After her comments of trying to justify their children’s deaths?

Come on

 

[GBJ]

Totally agree with you but all the evidence you cited the persons were given a day in court and handed a sentence. With this individual she has been stripped of her citizenship without a day in court.

I see. It all seems a bit backward-in-coming-forward though, no?

Cut out the middle man & let her stay where she is. Technically she’s not got a record, but more satisfyingly, she’s stranded in a terrible place, which is far worse than our prisons. I’ll be happy to check the math, but I’m sure it balances out.

 

[Firestorm]

http://www.asma-lamrabet.com/articles/what-does-the-qur-an-say-about-the-interfaith-marriage/

Deuteronomy 7:3-4

You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.

 

[Firestorm]

Well, Firestorm, it's as good a place for 'em to start as any I'd say and wouldn't be surprised if there will be other area's in law to draw on somewhere......

1948 hardly "scouring ancient statutes into the wee small hours to find some totally obscure 'law' laid down back in 16-0-frozen to death" is it

 

[GBJ]

Deuteronomy 7:3-4

You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.

Another advert for why grown, educated adults should engage their brains a little bit, and recognise religion for the complete and utter bollocks, that it is.

 

[KevinJH]

1948 hardly "scouring ancient statutes into the wee small hours to find some totally obscure 'law' laid down back in 16-0-frozen to death" is it

Well, bless my soul - I've now got a vision of some poor bu@@er being told by his mate "See ? I told you to work backwards......"

 

[GBJ]

Totally agree with you but all the evidence you cited the persons were given a day in court and handed a sentence. With this individual she has been stripped of her citizenship without a day in court.

I agree with you we give people rights and can remove them but you need due process and that means a day in court

Actually, come to think of it, are there grounds for her being charged & found guilty, in her absense?

People get sentenced in court all the time, in their own absense.

The crime she’s guilty of, is as stonewall as you’re ever going to get.

For those suggesting she deserves to be tried first, would it not make sense to hold a trial in her absense, find her guilty & then strip her of her citizenship? That way, everyone wins?

 

[Blueronron]

Agreed, we can’t know for sure.

What we can do, is look at the factors around her.

The school she went to, had (to my knowledge) at least one other male pupil who fled to Syria to join ISIS. So, that’s 4 pupils from that school who we know for a fact, had been radicalised. Therefore, I have no doubt in saying that the school is failing.

We know the father, of one of the other girls, had taken his daughter on demo’s. It safe to say, he was a particular influence in her life, could he also have been an influence in Begum’s life? How close was he to Begum’s parents? That’s a question for the authorities.

The Prevent Agency, failed miserably. They knew the girl was being, or had been radicalised. They instructed the school, who in turn, sent Begum’s parents a letter. Only they decided that the best form of delivery of said letter, was to give it to Begum to hand over. Another glowing endorsement for that School.



Without being too blunt, yes. This country is known as a softy, especially when it comes to justice. On top of that, we also have a rife victim culture, where anyone & everyone can sell their sob-story and make a few quid. Remember, in her interview, she thought that the British public would/should have sympathy for her.



How do you do that? Keep her locked up indefinitely, Guantanamo style? I’m not saying I’d disapprove, but I’m sure plenty would.

Let’s say she does her prison sentence, and untold hours of councelling/rehab, but still holds those deep-rooted feelings. What then? Another person to add to the already unwatched watchlist?




Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Remember, these people aren’t playing/fighting by the same rules as we are. In boxing terminology, we’re operating under Queensbury rules, and they’re street fighting.



Mate, I commend your sentiments, you’re far more noble & patient a man I’ll ever be.

But I can’t help but read this derisively. I’m sorry, it’s nothing personal, it’s just that is rubbish mate. You honestly believe the parents of small murdered children, would want this POS given another chance? After her comments of trying to justify their children’s deaths?

Come on

Well first of all, its good to see two different views can be discussed with out name calling and bullying (Thank you) certain people take note

GBJ at the moment I am not a Liam Neeson type of guy, that may change if something happened to my family (God forbid it please), but anger does go away very slowly and yes there are always people who will hope a grudge and in cases I understand, but I would like to think would my kids want me to be anger everyday and lose the way of living

I think you will find we fight fire with fire, just doesnt get reported, because of Papers who like to make it head line stories, and then as in the past with Piers Morgan find it was Fake news, before Trump coined the term

This case is so sensitive with Manchester and her stupid comments, but yes I do honestly think with time she could be used a weapon against ISIS, and tell youngsters how the life they are told is untrue. I'm not shrink but these people know the signs and it may take months/years but I believe it could happen and if it doesn't then the need to take her to prison is the only route, as we have no other means to be accountable for her, of course some see her as traitor, and if the death penalty was around, many would be happy to see go that route, is this how we should become going backwards in time ?
G Bay style I'm not so sure, does it help the cause or make it fester deeper, that is a different topic

 

[rigsby]

Most of us have not lost

Manchester was so wrong, but I bet the majority of those who have lost loved ones and the pain will never go away, would say she deserves a second chance if and its a big if she can realise how wrong her life was in ISIS

Could I forgive if I lost a child, I would like to think so ( But at the moment I havent lost anyone close to a terrible bombing/stabbing) but then my kids have always been brought up to understand compassion and its only a small majority that make the headlines when things are evil

I doubt very much you would.

I spent a nice morning about 30 years ago digging people out of the rubble after the IRA bombing of Mill Hill barracks, I bet nobody remembers that one......I certainly do.

Obviously none of the soldiers were relatives, just young men like myself back then. Somebody said in the football thread they needed a large drink after seeing a road accident at Charlton? the other week. Try helping the victims of a bomb......You don't forget because you cant, so you don't forgive...….So now you know why I despise the IRA, their political mouth pieces and idiots who know f*** all about Northern Ireland but showed support for their cause.

 

[Firestorm]

Actually, come to think of it, are there grounds for her being charged & found guilty, in her absense?

People get sentenced in court all the time, in their own absense.

The crime she’s guilty of, is as stonewall as you’re ever going to get.

For those suggesting she deserves to be tried first, would it not make sense to hold a trial in her absense, find her guilty & then strip her of her citizenship? That way, everyone wins?

That crossed my mind , but she would have to be given the chance to appear and if she can't it doesn't have to go ahead

"Conditions under which trials in absentia must be recognised include: if the person can be said to have been aware of the trial; if a counsellor took their place at the trial; if they do not request an appeal in due time; and if they are to be offered an appeal. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_in_absentia

Also Article 6 (see post above) of Right to a fair Trial will apply, so basically a hastily gathered Kangaroo court put together to give the Home Secretary a veil of legitimacy won't really work.

The Home secretary has spoken and pending any appeal, the details of which were in the letter handed to her Dad, that's it until the next time a suspected criminal jumps bail and goes abroad, then there will be a decision to go the established route of extradition then trail or the new "peoples choice" of just leave them there , cancel their passport and don't let them back in.

Might save on prisons costs etc , cant wait for the rush of applications from every town in the country to pull up the drawbridge when their local asbo holders go for their week in Ibeefa .

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Are you talking male or female?

both

 

[GBJ]

GBJ at the moment I am not a Liam Neeson type of guy, that may change if something happened to my family (God forbid it please), but anger does go away very slowly and yes there are always people who will hope a grudge and in cases I understand, but I would like to think would my kids want me to be anger everyday and lose the way of living

I’ll start by saying, I don’t want you to feel like I’m singling you out, or specifically trying to pick holes in everything you say...

But....

I can’t wrap my head around this.

You honestly believe that the mothers and fathers of those people, who were senselessly murdered in Manchester, would one day be able to forgive this girl?

You couldn’t. You wouldn’t. Something like that changes you as a person. Your world would never be the same again, you wouldn’t see things as clear as you do now.