Shamima Bequm-Return or not ?

[Benfleet A1]

The racist barstewards

Oh I don't know. I have always quite liked the Dutch.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I predict this now.

If she wins her appeal and she returns to the UK, faces prosecution and gets a 12 stretch or more. What's the betting she appeals the sentence on the grounds she's being denied her human rights to see, be with and nurture her new child.

Shouldn't be to the European Court of Human Rights though, depending on the new post Brexit legal framework

 

[Firestorm]

I

I predict this now.

If she wins her appeal and she returns to the UK, faces prosecution and gets a 12 stretch or more. What's the betting she appeals the sentence on the grounds she's being denied her human rights to see, be with and nurture her new child.

Shouldn't be to the European Court of Human Rights though, depending on the new post Brexit legal framework

Is human rights a valid grounds for appeal, I honestly thought that you could only appeal on the basis of the trial, ie withheld evidence , incorrect judicial process or failure to comply with sentencing guidelines ?
Human rights is a civil issue I think , not criminal..
Not totally sure , so if anyone knows for certain, please stick a link up.

 

[Firestorm]

Sort of answered my own question

https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/human-rights

Found this


Could she invoke article 6 now, if the removal of her citizenship is considered punishment without trial .

• The right to a fair trial and no punishment without law: you are innocent until proven guilty. If accused of a crime, you have the right to hear the evidence against you in a court of law.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

On ITV news on Wednesday night they showed a copy of the Home Office's most recent counter terrorism strategy drawn up in June 2018.



Within the document they give a theoretical case of a woman joining ISIS and then looking to return with the child. In this policy document it states the woman would be be subject to 'a managed return...police investigation....criminal proceedings (or if found innocent) an assisted reintegration into society....safeguarding the child's welfare'.



The foreword in the document and its presentation to Parliament was by Savid Javid.



So the policy he is attempting to use now completely contradicts the policy that he drew up and announced to Parliament last year.



Legally he seems to be creating problems that could be avoided.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I have to agree. Mr Javid seems to have opened a bit of a can of worms for himself.

 

[pottster]

Some might not like it but she should be allowed to return if she can and face justice. She has the right to be heard in a court of law and answer for her crimes. This could start a dangerous precedent where the government just strips people of their nationality because they don't like them and think they are the wrong sort of people for our country.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

I heard something yesterday on a radio phone in that made me take notice. A Muslim man was saying how wrong and out of touch they are, and that they need to change. He said that if any of the girls had left home and ran away with or to a peaceful Christian or Jewish man and got married, she would be seen as dirty and a traitor to the Islamic faith, and would be cast aside. They would not want her back ever whilst the father is alive, and in many cases they would try to get to her and murder her, normally carried out by an uncle or cousin on the request of the father. So he pointed out how crazy it is that she can run off and marry a peaceful man and be disowned and possibly murdered, but she can run off and marry a jihaadi man that has probably done unspeakable things to people including women and children in towns and small villages I.S. took over, and they want her back living in the family.
This is one messed up World when you think about it.

 

[rigsby]

Some might not like it but she should be allowed to return if she can and face justice. She has the right to be heard in a court of law and answer for her crimes. This could start a dangerous precedent where the government just strips people of their nationality because they don't like them and think they are the wrong sort of people for our country.

Who gives anyone 'rights'....We do, the people and if others abuse them we can remove them and there's nothing dangerous about that. Just ask any parents of those girls in Manchester.

 

[Blueronron]

I heard something yesterday on a radio phone in that made me take notice. A Muslim man was saying how wrong and out of touch they are, and that they need to change. He said that if any of the girls had left home and ran away with or to a peaceful Christian or Jewish man and got married, she would be seen as dirty and a traitor to the Islamic faith, and would be cast aside. They would not want her back ever whilst the father is alive, and in many cases they would try to get to her and murder her, normally carried out by an uncle or cousin on the request of the father. So he pointed out how crazy it is that she can run off and marry a peaceful man and be disowned and possibly murdered, but she can run off and marry a jihaadi man that has probably done unspeakable things to people including women and children in towns and small villages I.S. took over, and they want her back living in the family.
This is one messed up World when you think about it.

Sorry SNB, do you know this family because you seem to think they were happy for this to happen
Any parent would protect their child and yes she was totally wrong in her actions, I dont think anyone would disagree and yes she has come out with terrible statements re beheadings and not thinking Manchester was wrong. but end of the day she was 15, brain washed, immature and maybe very mixed up

Papers like Sun are loving it, stirring up patriot fever, personally this could be an own goal, donot often agree with Ken Clarke, but his words were very wise and should be noted

Not a rant at you SNB, but I dont feel as a parent they would have been happy, if I am wrong, I will apologise to you and buy you a few rounds of ale at next game home or away

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The 'don't marry outside of the religion' thing is a feature of most religions. When at Uni 30 years ago I knew a few girls from various religions who had secret boyfriends because they wouldn't be acceptable at home. My daughters have female friends now who have secret boyfriends.
At one school they attended there were quite a lot of kids whose parents were Plymouth Brethren and those kids were not allowed to eat with the others and had to have lunch in a separate room.
My grandfather was thrown out of the Catholic Church for marrying a Protestant.
My brother in law is Muslim and his wife is Christian (she is my wife's sister) and he goes to a Mosque and there is no issue with him marrying outside of the faith there or with his family.

Like all religions you will get a % of people who think they are the chosen ones and want to keep it 'pure'.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Sorry SNB, do you know this family because you seem to think they were happy for this to happen
Any parent would protect their child and yes she was totally wrong in her actions, I dont think anyone would disagree and yes she has come out with terrible statements re beheadings and not thinking Manchester was wrong. but end of the day she was 15, brain washed, immature and maybe very mixed up

Papers like Sun are loving it, stirring up patriot fever, personally this could be an own goal, donot often agree with Ken Clarke, but his words were very wise and should be noted

Not a rant at you SNB, but I dont feel as a parent they would have been happy, if I am wrong, I will apologise to you and buy you a few rounds of ale at next game home or away

Not taken as a rant, and no need to apologise. You have made some very valid points. Things like this need to be spoken about openly for a change. It's never going to be one sided. I actually admired the Muslim man talking on the radio and highlighting this situation.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

The 'don't marry outside of the religion' thing is a feature of most religions. When at Uni 30 years ago I knew a few girls from various religions who had secret boyfriends because they wouldn't be acceptable at home. My daughters have female friends now who have secret boyfriends.
At one school they attended there were quite a lot of kids whose parents were Plymouth Brethren and those kids were not allowed to eat with the others and had to have lunch in a separate room.
My grandfather was thrown out of the Catholic Church for marrying a Protestant.
My brother in law is Muslim and his wife is Christian (she is my wife's sister) and he goes to a Mosque and there is no issue with him marrying outside of the faith there or with his family.

Like all religions you will get a % of people who think they are the chosen ones and want to keep it 'pure'.

Muslim men are allowed to marry outside their religion. It's the women that aren't.

 

[KevinJH]

I can see the biggest losers being you and I - the taxpayer. You can bet your bottom Syrian Pound that some libertarian will have been scouring ancient statutes into the wee small hours to find some totally obscure 'law' laid down back in 16-0-frozen to death to drag through all the courts in the land - and probably beyond - that'll give this character a way back in. And then keep an eye on the floodgates.

 

[rigsby]

I can see the biggest losers being you and I - the taxpayer. You can bet your bottom Syrian Pound that some libertarian will have been scouring ancient statutes into the wee small hours to find some totally obscure 'law' laid down back in 16-0-frozen to death to drag through all the courts in the land - and probably beyond - that'll give this character a way back in. And then keep an eye on the floodgates.

Indeed, when MP's were trying to claim under a 17th century law they could weasel out of their expenses fraud, it should have been agreed......As long as if found guilty, the punishment was from the 17th century

 

[Firestorm]

I can see the biggest losers being you and I - the taxpayer. You can bet your bottom Syrian Pound that some libertarian will have been scouring ancient statutes into the wee small hours to find some totally obscure 'law' laid down back in 16-0-frozen to death to drag through all the courts in the land - and probably beyond - that'll give this character a way back in. And then keep an eye on the floodgates.

Is this what you mean


Human rights were first recognised internationally by the Universal Declaration on Human Rights in 1948, in the aftermath of the Second World War.

This was quickly followed by the adoption, two years later, of the European Convention on Human Rights.

In 1998 the Human Rights Act was passed, making the rights and freedoms in the European Convention on Human Rights directly enforceable in the UK. It came into force on 2 October 2000.

Its all on the link in post 364

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Muslim men are allowed to marry outside their religion. It's the women that aren't.

I know many who have.

 

[KevinJH]

Well, Firestorm, it's as good a place for 'em to start as any I'd say and wouldn't be surprised if there will be other area's in law to draw on somewhere......

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Racist? How is wanting to defy a person who supports a radical terrorist organisation racist?

Her ethnic background or creed does not come into it. Even if she was Susan Smith from Sandown she should not be allowed back in the UK.

It's clearly an attempt by the current Home Secretary to put down a marker for his own leadership bid of the Tories after May steps down.Pandering to the lowest common denominater in British politics may be popular and get him the job he wants but its hardly very ethical.Nor I suspect is it not based on a sound legal foundation,either..

Hopefully Susan Smith from Sandown doesn't have dual nationality.Nor would it appear does Shamina Begum.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47312207

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

I know many who have.

http://www.asma-lamrabet.com/articles/what-does-the-qur-an-say-about-the-interfaith-marriage/