My point was not clear, what I meant by that was Britain is a Christian country, and as the Burkha is not part of the Christian faith, people can/will argue it is out of place already.
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My point was not clear, what I meant by that was Britain is a Christian country, and as the Burkha is not part of the Christian faith, people can/will argue it is out of place already.
Interpol Shrimper
Member
Gets my vote, where do we all sign up?
Think of how many shows Grand Designs could get out of the Church Conversion projects or how many bars/clubs/sun-bed emporiums could be made into establishments of greater importance.
This is what has been posted on FB, it's one Australian's 5 reasons as to why he wants it banned.
1. Eye Contact
One of the strongest tenants of personal intracommunication between humans is eye contact. The Burqa by nature obscures this.
When I’m talking to someone primarily I’m looking into their eyes and secondarily I’m reading their face. This isn’t something that happens consciously, it’s a subconscious element to human interaction.
Mind you it’s not limited to humans either, my pet cats were able to tell what mood I was in off my facial expressions alone. If they were doing something they shouldn’t be often a frown and ‘angry eyes’ was all it took for them to have second thoughts.
The absence of these secondary forms of communication (the primary being speech) are definitely noticeable when absent. Try have a conversation with someone who completely covers their face, for me it’s extremely frustrating. I want to read their reactions to what I’m saying and gauge how the conversation is going.
There’s a lot more to communication then simply hearing a voice. Talking to an emotionless brick wall is largely unsatisfying and downright frustrating at times. If you’re wearing a burqa (or any other type of face covering clothing) I don’t want to talk to you.
In my personal life this is fine enough but it’s caused me problems in previous jobs where I’ve had to interact with burqa clad women. The frustration was even more compounded here as often English wasn’t a strong point. This in itself wasn’t a negative but often I had no way of gauging if I was being understood or not.
If you’re explaining something to someone and they don’t understand you can usually tell by their facial expression. Here I found myself dealing with a blank slate. Directly asking if they understood often led to silence or a slow ‘not-quite-sure’ nod. In these situations I just had to hope for the best.
2. Burqas make me feel like a predator
The whole concept of being modest in Islam appears to be to remove all physical temptation, from men.
If Islam attracts guys who can’t keep it in their pants then fair enough, but what about the rest of us?
Every time I see a burqa I’m subconsciously reminded that the reason she’s dressed like that is so that I don’t instantly turn into a slobbering uncontrollable animal and try to mate with her.
I mean that’s what it comes down to doesn’t it?
How about taking back the notion of self control and placing the burden of responsibility where it belongs, on the potential offender – not the potential victim.
3. I can’t hear you
This one probably again relates to my interactions with women wearing burqas. Not all women who wear a burqa are softly spoken but a hell of a lot of them are.
I’d have trouble understanding these women without a burqa, wearing one just makes me want to go bang my head against a wall.
Not because the women are softly spoken but because there’s no viable solution. Some random guy asking a woman to remove a burqa is punishable by beheading, or I won’t get into virgin heaven… or something.
‘mfphhhfphhhmmm’.
‘Hi there , sorry I can’t hear you. Can you speak up?’
‘MFPHHFPHHMMM!’
‘Hmm, yeah this isn’t really working. I’ll be right back.’
At this point I’d go and disappear for a half hour or so until they’d hopefully gone. Admittedly this didn’t happen often but when it did, after the first few games of me asking them to speak louder and getting nowhere, I really didn’t know what to do.
In any other circumstance I’d just ask them to remove whatever was making them difficult to hear. But it’s the almighty burqa and we can’t ask that.
4. Body Odor
For anyone who thought Indians smelt bad, wait until you’re in the vicinity of a burqa clad women in summer. I’ve read that deodorant and Islam might come into opposition due to the alcohol content of some deodorants but by and large I believe it’s just laziness.
I mean if you’re going to run around invisible all day who cares what people think about your smell or looks.
For the rest of the us this is a nightmare. Australian summers aren’t cold and dressing head to toe in black cannot by any stretch of the imagination be comfortable. Hell even if you wore deodorant, five minutes outside and you’d still be wading through your very own swimming pool.
Sorry but I don’t want to smell your body odor because you choose to wear climatalogically inappropriate clothing.
5. woman’s rights
Now this is a tricky one. There’s plenty of women out there who will go on about how it’s a personal choice and they like wearing a burqa.
To this I say fair enough. You were born into this culture and have had it repeatedly re-enforced throughout your life. Nothing is going to change that. In most middle eastern and African countries were the burqa is prevalent often it’s not even a choice, the laws of the land forbid you from not wearing a burqa in public.
Now it’s certainly not up to me to tell women what they can and can’t wear but I believe the choice to wear or not wear one is important. Of course this contradicts my support for banning the burqa but I’m struggling with that.
I believe the choice to wear a burqa or not is important for future generations. The problem with the west is with immigration we’re getting immigrants from hardline Muslim countries where there is no choice.
This generation of women are mostly a lost cause, it’s become a way of life for them. I see the next generation of immigrant female children as being hard pressed to burqa up, infact I just don’t see it happening as a majority at all. Not if they’ve grown up in western society.
I guess what it comes down to is if we can wait that long. My own prejudices against communicating with someone who masks their identity aren’t going to change anytime soon. I’ll forever see restricting the basic tenants of communication as a sign of disrespect, dishonesty and just being downright rude.
On one hand I’d love to see the burqa banned but the issue of personal freedoms is quite a strong argument. Then again, it’s not like we don’t already ban some forms of clothing, or lack thereof. Try walking down the street in some budgie smugglers, or wearing a motorcycle helmet into a bank, or wearing shorts and a tshirt into a club and see what happens.
If as a society we’ve already content to have the above examples of clothing restrictions in place, is it really that much of a big step to legislate it
1. Eye Contact
One of the strongest tenants of personal intracommunication between humans is eye contact. The Burqa by nature obscures this.
When I’m talking to someone primarily I’m looking into their eyes and secondarily I’m reading their face. This isn’t something that happens consciously, it’s a subconscious element to human interaction.
Mind you it’s not limited to humans either, my pet cats were able to tell what mood I was in off my facial expressions alone. If they were doing something they shouldn’t be often a frown and ‘angry eyes’ was all it took for them to have second thoughts.
The absence of these secondary forms of communication (the primary being speech) are definitely noticeable when absent. Try have a conversation with someone who completely covers their face, for me it’s extremely frustrating. I want to read their reactions to what I’m saying and gauge how the conversation is going.
There’s a lot more to communication then simply hearing a voice. Talking to an emotionless brick wall is largely unsatisfying and downright frustrating at times. If you’re wearing a burqa (or any other type of face covering clothing) I don’t want to talk to you.
In my personal life this is fine enough but it’s caused me problems in previous jobs where I’ve had to interact with burqa clad women. The frustration was even more compounded here as often English wasn’t a strong point. This in itself wasn’t a negative but often I had no way of gauging if I was being understood or not.
If you’re explaining something to someone and they don’t understand you can usually tell by their facial expression. Here I found myself dealing with a blank slate. Directly asking if they understood often led to silence or a slow ‘not-quite-sure’ nod. In these situations I just had to hope for the best.
2. Burqas make me feel like a predator
The whole concept of being modest in Islam appears to be to remove all physical temptation, from men.
If Islam attracts guys who can’t keep it in their pants then fair enough, but what about the rest of us?
Every time I see a burqa I’m subconsciously reminded that the reason she’s dressed like that is so that I don’t instantly turn into a slobbering uncontrollable animal and try to mate with her.
I mean that’s what it comes down to doesn’t it?
How about taking back the notion of self control and placing the burden of responsibility where it belongs, on the potential offender – not the potential victim.
3. I can’t hear you
This one probably again relates to my interactions with women wearing burqas. Not all women who wear a burqa are softly spoken but a hell of a lot of them are.
I’d have trouble understanding these women without a burqa, wearing one just makes me want to go bang my head against a wall.
Not because the women are softly spoken but because there’s no viable solution. Some random guy asking a woman to remove a burqa is punishable by beheading, or I won’t get into virgin heaven… or something.
‘mfphhhfphhhmmm’.
‘Hi there , sorry I can’t hear you. Can you speak up?’
‘MFPHHFPHHMMM!’
‘Hmm, yeah this isn’t really working. I’ll be right back.’
At this point I’d go and disappear for a half hour or so until they’d hopefully gone. Admittedly this didn’t happen often but when it did, after the first few games of me asking them to speak louder and getting nowhere, I really didn’t know what to do.
In any other circumstance I’d just ask them to remove whatever was making them difficult to hear. But it’s the almighty burqa and we can’t ask that.
4. Body Odor
For anyone who thought Indians smelt bad, wait until you’re in the vicinity of a burqa clad women in summer. I’ve read that deodorant and Islam might come into opposition due to the alcohol content of some deodorants but by and large I believe it’s just laziness.
I mean if you’re going to run around invisible all day who cares what people think about your smell or looks.
For the rest of the us this is a nightmare. Australian summers aren’t cold and dressing head to toe in black cannot by any stretch of the imagination be comfortable. Hell even if you wore deodorant, five minutes outside and you’d still be wading through your very own swimming pool.
Sorry but I don’t want to smell your body odor because you choose to wear climatalogically inappropriate clothing.
5. woman’s rights
Now this is a tricky one. There’s plenty of women out there who will go on about how it’s a personal choice and they like wearing a burqa.
To this I say fair enough. You were born into this culture and have had it repeatedly re-enforced throughout your life. Nothing is going to change that. In most middle eastern and African countries were the burqa is prevalent often it’s not even a choice, the laws of the land forbid you from not wearing a burqa in public.
Now it’s certainly not up to me to tell women what they can and can’t wear but I believe the choice to wear or not wear one is important. Of course this contradicts my support for banning the burqa but I’m struggling with that.
I believe the choice to wear a burqa or not is important for future generations. The problem with the west is with immigration we’re getting immigrants from hardline Muslim countries where there is no choice.
This generation of women are mostly a lost cause, it’s become a way of life for them. I see the next generation of immigrant female children as being hard pressed to burqa up, infact I just don’t see it happening as a majority at all. Not if they’ve grown up in western society.
I guess what it comes down to is if we can wait that long. My own prejudices against communicating with someone who masks their identity aren’t going to change anytime soon. I’ll forever see restricting the basic tenants of communication as a sign of disrespect, dishonesty and just being downright rude.
On one hand I’d love to see the burqa banned but the issue of personal freedoms is quite a strong argument. Then again, it’s not like we don’t already ban some forms of clothing, or lack thereof. Try walking down the street in some budgie smugglers, or wearing a motorcycle helmet into a bank, or wearing shorts and a tshirt into a club and see what happens.
If as a society we’ve already content to have the above examples of clothing restrictions in place, is it really that much of a big step to legislate it
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Poll added, although obviously I have hidden the identity of voters...Ironic eh..;)
MK Shrimper
Striker
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
- Messages
- 52,643
You are Alanis Morisette and I claim my £5.
please delete my account
Midfield
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 891
Hey Chaps!
I believe I've said this before, but I think the Burkha should be forced on all ugly women, whatever their religion.
I would rather see a ban on any fat arsed bint wearing either a short skirt or cycling shorts, because there are plenty that do.
Personally, I don't want to see a pair of fat, wobbly thighs with visible chafing marks grossing me out.
It's nigh on impossible to maintain an erection with that kind of **** on show.
Kind Regards
I believe I've said this before, but I think the Burkha should be forced on all ugly women, whatever their religion.
I would rather see a ban on any fat arsed bint wearing either a short skirt or cycling shorts, because there are plenty that do.
Personally, I don't want to see a pair of fat, wobbly thighs with visible chafing marks grossing me out.
It's nigh on impossible to maintain an erection with that kind of **** on show.
Kind Regards
The crimes you are trying to prevent are already illegal. It appears criminalising these activities doesn't actually prevent them taking place. Why criminalise innocent activities on top of these?
I agree it is an issue for the Muslim Council of Britain, not for the government. As far as I'm concerned the government has no business telling me or anyone else what I can or can't wear.
Right, if we are going to ignore British values of tolerance and bang on about British culture can you please sort out your grammar and spelling.
The plural of hoody is hoodies and what the hell is that apostrophe doing there?
If you want to show some pride in being English and protect English/British culture, learn the ****ing language.
We can either be tolerant (including me on your awful spelling and grammar) or we can protect Britishness, including the English language. Your call.
Gremlin
Life President⭐
I'd prefer to ban the French.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/uk-to-ban-uncovered-frenchmen-201007192919/
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/uk-to-ban-uncovered-frenchmen-201007192919/
Jedi Shrimper
formerly Drastic™
MK Shrimper
Striker
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
- Messages
- 52,643
Not when half our team are Les Blues!
Jedi Shrimper
formerly Drastic™
They can wear the light balaclavas.
SUFC branded of course [and sold in the club shop for £12.99. SUFC Frenchie Buckets £18.99]
Kent Shrimper
Mike Reid
Yep spot on JM
haveaguiness
Coach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2007
- Messages
- 694
I don't for one moment think this is an attack on Muslim's or that everyone in a Burkha is automatically going to hold up a shop at gun point, but what I feel it is, is a call of defence for people that are already being "discriminated", if you so wish, in this country. People that wear their hood's up. Motorcyclist's having to remove their helmet's when entering a shop. People having to take Baseball caps off.
Why is it, they feel, that they should have to abide by "shop laws" yet people covered from head to toe in black, with just their eyes showing can stroll around Bluewater with not so much as a thought at asking them to show their face.
Criminal's or not, surely if 99% of people are made to remove an item of clothing, so not to raise suspicion, then surely the other 1% have to follow suit?
This is not a question of being British in the slightest. Nor is it a question of taking away a tradition from the Muslim faith to make it more "western". It is surely just a defence of the moral's we live by to make our society as safe as possible. If we have to sacrifice removing a hood when we enter a supermarket, or taking our motorcycle helmet off when we are buying petrol then the entire population has to do this, not just most of us.
Why is it, they feel, that they should have to abide by "shop laws" yet people covered from head to toe in black, with just their eyes showing can stroll around Bluewater with not so much as a thought at asking them to show their face.
Criminal's or not, surely if 99% of people are made to remove an item of clothing, so not to raise suspicion, then surely the other 1% have to follow suit?
This is not a question of being British in the slightest. Nor is it a question of taking away a tradition from the Muslim faith to make it more "western". It is surely just a defence of the moral's we live by to make our society as safe as possible. If we have to sacrifice removing a hood when we enter a supermarket, or taking our motorcycle helmet off when we are buying petrol then the entire population has to do this, not just most of us.
I'm sorry, have you mistaken me for some kind of mug? If you wanna be patronising, how's about to my face yeah? See if you're so smug then eh?
I'm not calling you a mug, I'm pointing out a logical inconsistency in your position. I'm on the tolerance side of the debate myself, but the one thing I'm convinced about is the need for consistency. How about you?
ps Am more than happy to have philosophical debates over a beer. I'm in the Spread after most home games if you want to take the didactic further.
Smudger
Manager
The time I've spent in the Middle East has never lessened my amazement that there are women in the 21st Century dressed in these ridiculous outfits. At least in the Gulf you have the argument that their society is still developing from a tribal system and the basic fact that there are millions of sexually frustrated men living amongst them, driven nuts by the constraints of their religion. Lewd staring is a sport which the Pakistani labourers would be world champions at every year. Our society is totally different in the UK and we have no need to "tolerate" such a ridiculous and unnecessary masking of a person's identity.
In the Middle East, in my experience, many women who wear the full veil (as opposed to a simple scarf covering their hair) do so in order to behave like complete ****s, all the while safe in the knowledge that for all intents and purposes, they're anonymous. I'd love Cameron to grow a pair and ban it tomorrow but as it would go down like a concrete t.urd with the liberals and Guardian readers - he won't.
In the Middle East, in my experience, many women who wear the full veil (as opposed to a simple scarf covering their hair) do so in order to behave like complete ****s, all the while safe in the knowledge that for all intents and purposes, they're anonymous. I'd love Cameron to grow a pair and ban it tomorrow but as it would go down like a concrete t.urd with the liberals and Guardian readers - he won't.
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MK Shrimper
Striker
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
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- 52,643
EastStandBlue
Life President
- Joined
- May 29, 2005
- Messages
- 15,519
Interpol Shrimper
Member
At the risk of a fatwa, did it look anything like this?
Seeing as the letter writing skills on SZ seem to get results...
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