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Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
22,733
Location
Canvey Island
Iraq is a safer place now. The US military recorded no casualties in Iraq in December. The surge was a success, whether you want to admit it or not.

Almost 7 years after the invasion. Not doubting your stats here, but I am sure there was a huge car bomb attack that bumped off a few hundred in December in Baghdad.
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
19,752
Location
G69
You don't even know Blair lied to Parliament! if he is presented with facts about what we should do how is he lying he is just presenting the facts

Other than the fact it's already come out about their legal team strongly recommending not to get involved as the war would be illegal as well as the whole "75 minutes" story being included in the report to make the situation look a lot more dangerous than it reality it was.

Not to mention the Secret Service murder of that guy who was the head of the UN weapon inspectors...
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
6,800
Location
Oregon
Almost 7 years after the invasion. Not doubting your stats here, but I am sure there was a huge car bomb attack that bumped off a few hundred in December in Baghdad.

How is Tony Blair or Dubya responsible for muslims blowing up other muslims? Is your argument that we should have let Saddam keep these loons in order with his own special brand of keeping the peace?
 

Slipperduke

The Camden Cad
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
4,333
Location
North London
Didn't UN inspector Scott Ritter end up on some trumped-up child porn charges as well? That was also the fate of that 3G chap from Massive Attack after he made the foolish decision to head up the protest movement. Nice people, our government.
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
6,800
Location
Oregon
Didn't UN inspector Scott Ritter end up on some trumped-up child porn charges as well? That was also the fate of that 3G chap from Massive Attack after he made the foolish decision to head up the protest movement. Nice people, our government.

They could have been dealing with car batteries being attached to their johnsons under Uncle Saddam.
 
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
22,733
Location
Canvey Island
You don't even know Blair lied to Parliament! if he is presented with facts about what we should do how is he lying he is just presenting the facts

Blair lied to Parliament over the 45 minute deployment of non existent missiles. He didn't "mislead" Parliament he deliberately told a dirty great black lie, a consequence of which cost the lives of over one hundred British troops, men far braver than me.
 

Slipperduke

The Camden Cad
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
4,333
Location
North London
Let's open with the Kurds.

But with the greatest of respect, I don't give a toss about the Kurds. I care about the UK, her troops, her finances and her standing in the world.

The only benefit from this whole adventure was the continuation of our 'special relationship' with the US, but even that is fleeting. Look at France. They ****ing built the United States and they got dropped on their arse the first time they argued.
 

Reg Martin

No Relation
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
2,516
I don't doubt we have many dubious allies in the middle east and around the world but I can't help thinking that Israel, whatever its faults, is a lot less dubious than many of our other allies. Saudi Arabia, for example, is a far more oppressive regime and it would seem the source of an extreme version of Islam that it has aggressively promoted across the globe.
Iran's president has vowed to wipe Israel off the map and they are actively trying to develop nuclear weapons so it's hard to blame the Israeli's for being a bit twitchy.
A cynical/realistic view on the downside of the removal of Saddam is that his regime provided a counterbalance to Iran which was the reason we originally armed him.
Blair did take us to war on false pretences (WMD) but I don't get the fuss over it being an illegal war - after all the West's intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone were also illegal.
 
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
22,733
Location
Canvey Island
I don't doubt we have many dubious allies in the middle east and around the world but I can't help thinking that Israel, whatever its faults, is a lot less dubious than many of our other allies. Saudi Arabia, for example, is a far more oppressive regime and it would seem the source of an extreme version of Islam that it has aggressively promoted across the globe.
Iran's president has vowed to wipe Israel off the map and they are actively trying to develop nuclear weapons so it's hard to blame the Israeli's for being a bit twitchy.
A cynical/realistic view on the downside of the removal of Saddam is that his regime provided a counterbalance to Iran which was the reason we originally armed him.
Blair did take us to war on false pretences (WMD) but I don't get the fuss over it being an illegal war - after all the West's intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone were also illegal.

Pretty much agree with that.
Apart from the points about Sierra Leone & Kosovo as our troops were involved as part of a UN force IIRC.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
17,065
So how about Israel then?
Is it OK they can commit a whole load of atrocities because they are defending their religion whereas the people who they are fighting against have been in residence for far longer.
If this was any other country in the world, watch the US go steaming in (with faithful little UK chasing their coat tails) and asking questions later...

I must have missed the moment when Israel ceased to be the only democracy in the area and started being ruled by a murderous sadistic dictator. Is it really the case that the Palestinians have been around SO much longer? I believe the Israelites have a fairly solid historical claim to the territory, backed up by recent internetional law and the crushing *** kicking they dished out to the Arabs when the modern state of Israel was created.

Also, the Israelis aren't sponsoring or supporting terror attacks against us and our allies, so there are far better candidates for our ire.

I'd also like to be reminded of these attrocities you talk of?

Jenin? Where the Palestinians claimed that the IDF had murdered hundreds of men, women and children. The UN investigation and report had to be buried because, lo and behold, it turns out there was a firefight and about 40-50 people on each side died. It was from then on that I realised that you simply can't trust a word they say.

I also remember that once the seige had finished and the press were let in I read two articles about this "attrocity". The first was in a UK newspaper (can't remember which one) that said that there was a woman found dead in the street. The Jerusalem Post mentioned the same woman. The difference was that they went a bit further, with the line, "her kalashnikov still by her side".

I also bet that for every "attrocity" you mention I can give you one back the other way. The countless suicide bombings and rocket attacks far outweighing anything in the other direction. Did you know that at the height of the intifada there were about 11,500 rocket attacks on Israel every year? The fact that most missed is the only reason more people weren't killed. It was also this level of attack that led to Israel's response.

Don't forget, i've seen all the rockets, all lined up in the Sderot Police Station - the Israeli's keep them all. I went to Sderot for a couple of hours, and was a nervous wreck the whole time I was there. I can't imagine what it must be like to live there. Every time there was a loud noise everyone jumped up just in case it was the early warning alarm telling them to get into their bomb shelters. I can't believe people still live there...
 
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londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
17,065
I don't doubt we have many dubious allies in the middle east and around the world but I can't help thinking that Israel, whatever its faults, is a lot less dubious than many of our other allies. Saudi Arabia, for example, is a far more oppressive regime and it would seem the source of an extreme version of Islam that it has aggressively promoted across the globe.
Iran's president has vowed to wipe Israel off the map and they are actively trying to develop nuclear weapons so it's hard to blame the Israeli's for being a bit twitchy.
A cynical/realistic view on the downside of the removal of Saddam is that his regime provided a counterbalance to Iran which was the reason we originally armed him.
Blair did take us to war on false pretences (WMD) but I don't get the fuss over it being an illegal war - after all the West's intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone were also illegal.

As did Saddam. Remember the first Gulf War, and his long range missiles that landed in Tel Aviv? First he invaded Kuwait, and when the West got involved he turned on Israel to try and gain support from the rest of the region. Thankfully that failed.
 
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