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Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
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G69
Sorry for bringing Israel into the equation, obviously there are people on here who know more about either side's issues (I've steered well clear of it since having had to do the 6 day war for GCSE History).

Anyway, my final point is taken from a documentary about modern day Jewish Persecution (it was on True Stories a few weeks back on E4 - can't remember it's title). A part of this film showed teenage Israelis going on a fact finding mission about the Holacuast to Poland, they had to take 4 Security Service men with them, and one day as they were walking around a small Polish town 3 of the kids were asked a simple question (it was translated as "What is the time?"). 2 of the Israeli Secret Service guys acted almost as if the old geezer was a suicide bomber and were on the verge of flooring him. When questioned later the kids said they had been told that the old man had said to them "Are you Israeli, you're not welcome here, the Nazis will come for you later!" and that they all had to obey a curfew in their hotel that night as they'd had other warnings that a Neo-Nazi group were coming to attack them.

Never have I borne witness to such a delusional bunch of individuals. I don't doubt there's faults of the Palestinian/Muslim side either (Rusty, you especially should know my personal perspective on Muslim Extremism) but I cannot believe a so-called modern society is brainwashing 16 year-old who are about to undertake their minimum period of national service. Like I said, it may not be my specialist subject, but personally I'd say it's comparable to anything the Stasi, the Securitati or KGB were guilty of.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
16,340
Sorry for bringing Israel into the equation, obviously there are people on here who know more about either side's issues (I've steered well clear of it since having had to do the 6 day war for GCSE History).

Anyway, my final point is taken from a documentary about modern day Jewish Persecution (it was on True Stories a few weeks back on E4 - can't remember it's title). A part of this film showed teenage Israelis going on a fact finding mission about the Holacuast to Poland, they had to take 4 Security Service men with them, and one day as they were walking around a small Polish town 3 of the kids were asked a simple question (it was translated as "What is the time?"). 2 of the Israeli Secret Service guys acted almost as if the old geezer was a suicide bomber and were on the verge of flooring him. When questioned later the kids said they had been told that the old man had said to them "Are you Israeli, you're not welcome here, the Nazis will come for you later!" and that they all had to obey a curfew in their hotel that night as they'd had other warnings that a Neo-Nazi group were coming to attack them.

Never have I borne witness to such a delusional bunch of individuals. I don't doubt there's faults of the Palestinian/Muslim side either (Rusty, you especially should know my personal perspective on Muslim Extremism) but I cannot believe a so-called modern society is brainwashing 16 year-old who are about to undertake their minimum period of national service. Like I said, it may not be my specialist subject, but personally I'd say it's comparable to anything the Stasi, the Securitati or KGB were guilty of.

You should read all the Palestinian school books then. None of which have Israel on the map. Did you also know that under Arafat there was at least one national TV channel that only showed Palestinians being attacked by Israelis? I doubt things are that much better now that the moderate Hamas are in control of the Gaza strip.
 
Joined
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G69
You should read all the Palestinian school books then. None of which have Israel on the map. Did you also know that under Arafat there was at least one national TV channel that only showed Palestinians being attacked by Israelis? I doubt things are that much better now that the moderate Hamas are in control of the Gaza strip.

I wouldn't (sorry lefties) class Palestine as a "modern society" though...
 

Sussex Shrimper

Manager
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
1,674
I don't doubt we have many dubious allies in the middle east and around the world but I can't help thinking that Israel, whatever its faults, is a lot less dubious than many of our other allies. Saudi Arabia, for example, is a far more oppressive regime and it would seem the source of an extreme version of Islam that it has aggressively promoted across the globe.
Iran's president has vowed to wipe Israel off the map and they are actively trying to develop nuclear weapons so it's hard to blame the Israeli's for being a bit twitchy.
A cynical/realistic view on the downside of the removal of Saddam is that his regime provided a counterbalance to Iran which was the reason we originally armed him.
Blair did take us to war on false pretences (WMD) but I don't get the fuss over it being an illegal war - after all the West's intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone were also illegal.

This is what I want to hear answered. If we really want to get to the root of Islamic fundamentalist ideology then why are we so reluctant to question our funding, via oil money, of the spread of Wahhabist fatwa with a zeal and backing that many historically influential, moderate academic institutions find themselves unable to compete with? The Saudis disregard human rights with the best of them, show utter contempt for international law on matters of bribery and fraud and fund the spread of precisely the kind of doctrine we subsequently find ourselves frowning over when it crops up elsewhere. They seem a strange choice of ally but it appears that they have us over a barrel, if you'll pardon the pun.
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
6,800
Location
Oregon
This is what I want to hear answered. If we really want to get to the root of Islamic fundamentalist ideology then why are we so reluctant to question our funding, via oil money, of the spread of Wahhabist fatwa with a zeal and backing that many historically influential, moderate academic institutions find themselves unable to compete with? The Saudis disregard human rights with the best of them, show utter contempt for international law on matters of bribery and fraud and fund the spread of precisely the kind of doctrine we subsequently find ourselves frowning over when it crops up elsewhere. They seem a strange choice of ally but it appears that they have us over a barrel, if you'll pardon the pun.

Agreed 100%. We either take away the Saudis' bargaining chips by force or start driving nuclear powered hatchbacks.
 

Reg Martin

No Relation
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
2,516
Pretty much agree with that.
Apart from the points about Sierra Leone & Kosovo as our troops were involved as part of a UN force IIRC.

I'm not 100% sure but I think there were no UN resolutions authorising intervention in Sierra Leone and Kosovo - and it is the lack of a UN resolution for Iraq that is usually cited as reason for 'illegality' of Iraq war.
 

Thorpe Groyney

Open your mind
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
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Surely it's plain to see?
As did Saddam. Remember the first Gulf War, and his long range missiles that landed in Tel Aviv? First he invaded Kuwait, and when the West got involved he turned on Israel to try and gain support from the rest of the region. Thankfully that failed.

That's not strictly quite right. It was done to isolate Western forces in Kuwait.

If Israel had responded in kind and fired rockets into Baghdad, the Arab nations within the coalition forces, such as Egypt, would have withdrawn their support, as they could never be party to something that would back an Israeli attack on an Arab nation.

Rather than doing it to gain support from neighbours that ordinarily disliked him intensely, Saddam fired rockets into Israel in order to decrease support for his opponents.
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
31,475
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Sant Cugat del Vallès
I must have missed the moment when Israel ceased to be the only democracy in the area and started being ruled by a murderous sadistic dictator. Is it really the case that the Palestinians have been around SO much longer? I believe the Israelites have a fairly solid historical claim to the territory, backed up by recent international law and the crushing *** kicking they dished out to the Arabs when the modern state of Israel was created.

Also, the Israelis aren't sponsoring or supporting terror attacks against us and our allies, so there are far better candidates for our ire.

Have you ever been to Israel?
 

Slipperduke

The Camden Cad
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
4,333
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North London
It all comes down to one simple point. Was Blair lying or did he just **** up royally?

Forget about Saddam, women's rights, 9/11, Uday, the oil, Osama, terrorism and all of that.

Blair took us to war because he insisted that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that were going to kill us all, probably in 45 minutes. But there were no weapons.

Either he was telling fibs or he made a really, really bad call. Everything else is just fluff and claiming that we had to go and fight just in case is, I believe, commonly known as the 'Steven Gerrard' defence.
 

Thorpe Groyney

Open your mind
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,389
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Surely it's plain to see?
Anyway, trips to the Holy Land aside, I genuinely think Tony Blair believed he was doing the right thing based upon the 'evidence' presented to him at the time. I thought it was wrong at the time, and that his faith in the intelligence he received was naive to the point of dangerous, but understand why he came to his decision.

It should also be remembered that, at the time, despite the protest of a million people throughout the UK, the majority believed going into Iraq was the right thing to do. I believed it was done for the sake of oil but I was in a minority in 2003. If there had been such a vast and outraged opposition to the conflict, he wouldn't have secured a fairly comfortable 60 seat majority in the 2005 election.

Hindsight, as ever, is a wonderful thing.
 

Sussex Shrimper

Manager
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
1,674
Agreed 100%. We either take away the Saudis' bargaining chips by force or start driving nuclear powered hatchbacks.

I'm not personally a fan of theft but I'm more than happy to hear the scientists out on the safety and suitability of nuclear power, at least as a stopgap solution. In some Green circles it's my very own crime of apostasy.
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
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I do a very good Sean Connery and my visit didn't really change that.

Very droll.:)
Since you don't want to elaborate on your views of Israel I'll give you mine.
BTW, I spent 3 months on a Kibbutz on the northern border with Lebannon back in the mid-70's and have also made two further trips since then back to Israel.
The Kibbutz I stayed on was built on Arab land, taken from Arab farmers, who were forcibly evacuated in 1948 and received no compensation for their property.
Far from being a genuine democracy Israel is little more than a puppet state under the control of the American Government.It is a much wider threat to the peace of the entire region than the state of Iran.cf Any of Chomsky's recent political writing.
 
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