Time for RM to show he means it - actions speak louder than words !

[GBJ]

Very important point !!!

but 10 years ago that fan base was 3/4000 and RM and the Club have done wonders to get it up to the 9/10000 mark, but where do we go now ? We can fit many more into the Hall so therefore need a bigger one and as RM has said its not that more expensive to build 22k than 15k ! It gives us something to aim at.
As for poor Darlington, i remember seeing 1005 other people crammed into 35,000 Roots Hall not that long ago, IT HAPPENS ! Look at Wigan for example, theyre in the Premiership and yet they play to half full stadia as do Blackburn and Bolton, are you going to suggest to them that they make their grounds smaller ??

RM has nothing to do with getting us up to that status. I believe it was a partnership called Tilly and Brush, coupled with a few top notch players that were bringing more fans in with their sterling performances???

 

[GBJ]

or we could get a couple of gems in again and have a good finish to the season, the stadium actually gets started and things could really start to look up, half full, half empty who knows, im a half full kind of guy, we are skint but so are many many clubs out there, only time will tell on the gamble I suppose, I do actually agree with you on the gambling point...in my 25 years of following the blues I can honestly say its not always good at the hall but its certainly never boring

This of course is the other side of the gamble. The "gamble" in itself has the potential to be very worthwhile, or very catostrophic.

The question is, how far is Dr.Warchest ready to go in the gamble? Here's an example of what i mean, hypothetically, we're on the brink of relegation, we desperately need funds to be released to bring in some new players who will hopefully keep us afloat, or at least give us a fighting chance. BUT on the other hand, the stadium is nearly done, and those potential new player funds can be used to complete the stadium. What does RM do? Will he let a little thing like relegation get in the way of his masterplan a.k.a. his big payday?

 

[united we stand]

My point is, last season the loan ,market worked. This season so far it hasn't. If it takes us 3/4/5+ years to get into the new ground, how can we afford to put our L1 status on the line by gambling in the loan market every year? One year we won't be so successfull, and won't have a Lee Barnard to rely on and L2 will be our destination

I take it from the above you are assuming that we will not receive any funds from sainsburys, or loans backed by the new site/agreement to sell site to Sainsbury's until it is all finished ???

I don't beleive any of us know how the funding is going to work.
Do you know that we will not receive any funds from Sainsburys, or loans backed by the new site/agreement to sell until it is all totally completed??

 

[GBJ]

I take it from the above you are assuming that we will not receive any funds from sainsburys, or loans backed by the new site/agreement to sell site to Sainsbury's until it is all finished ???

I don't beleive any of us know how the funding is going to work.
Do you know that we will not receive any funds from Sainsburys, or loans backed by the new site/agreement to sell until it is all totally completed??

I'm not totally sure how the funding will work either. But it's gunna come from one of 2 places; the Sainbury's money (or majority of it) IS the funding for the new stadium, or that's what i thought, or RM and his companies will be funding it in some way, but i doubt it's that one.

I was also under the impression that the sale would be complete as soon as the contracts are exchanged, as per the doctors last Blog, where he indicated all they needed to do was sort out a few stumbling blocks for the contracts to be exchanged. Therefore giving us the funds to begin work on FF.

 

[fbm]

But at this point in time, we don't have a fanbase of 18-20,000. we have a fanbase of about 10-13,000 tops.

There's no point going over the size of the stadium again, whether it's a good idea or a bad idea. The be-all-and-end-all is a 22,000 seater stadium that is 1/5th full looks ridiculous, many areas of the ground will be closed off, and the predicted revenue will be a lot less. How many times have you seen Darlo on tv and thought "unlucky".

But Swansea had a similar size fanbase as us until they moved from the Vetch and now have many more. Football at the top is killing itself. As a successful League One club, we "nicked" many supporters who probably would support prem teams but couldn't afford it. This trend I predict will continue as the fan looks to affiliate himself with a team he can relate to and not just watch from the back of an immense stand with binoculars paying and an absolute fortune for the privilege. Why on earth do you think we'll only attract 4000 fans? What basis have you for that assessment?

Moving onto Darlington, the trouble there is that a) it's 60% rural with many farmers, b) there are less than 100,000 males of any age (including children) that live within 10 miles of Darlington (as opposed to nearly that many males in the Southend district alone) and c) there isn't an event of any description that you could stage up there and attract 30,000 people, which I believe is the stadium capacity. All the above are official governement figures by the way that you can get from the internet if you want to check. We are hardly in the same bracket as them.

You could just as easily look at Reading and Wigan for comparables as to what can be done with a successful team in a bigger stadium. Ok, Dave Whelan has bankrolled Wigan to the top level since he took over in 1995 but they only joined the league in 1978 and have no footballing pedigree, coming from a predominantly rugby town.

Reading are much more like us, having similar ground sizes (Elm Park, not Madelski) and demographics and if you check the Reading website you'll see that the current location plus surrounding areas and facilities at Madejski stadium are pretty much similar to what we will have (or hope to have) at Fossetts.

All we need is someone with Madejski's money...

So what would be your preference then? Stay as we are? Or build a smaller ground like Col U?

 

[weststander]

RM has nothing to do with getting us up to that status. I believe it was a partnership called Tilly and Brush, coupled with a few top notch players that were bringing more fans in with their sterling performances???

And could you remind us who appointed Tilly and Brush and backed them with the funds to pay these players ?? I would say that without RM then we would be supporting a team a darn site lower than the Blue Square Premier.

 

[EastStandBlue]

And could you remind us who appointed Tilly and Brush and backed them with the funds to pay these players ??

This at a time when there was overwhelming fan and media pressure to announce Collymore as manager. Nothing against SVC, but it would've been a suicidal move to make that appointment and RM showed his capabilities by making the right choice.

Some people just like someone or something to have a moan about. We're not doing extraordinarily well at the moment, so the knives come out for people in charge.

What I can't believe, however, is the criticism at the club for even attempting some stabilised growth. Of course we need to make the new stadium 22,000... Any less than that and we might as well stay at Roots Hall, it just wouldn't be a forward step. At 22,000 we can easily facilitate large crowds, such as Leeds or cup ties, while keeping our crowds at 10-12,000. Do people really want us to "do a Colchester" and offer no forward thinking at all?

What I fully expect the club to do is launch a Bradford/Huddersfield style initiative to boost the season ticket sales. At the moment, the Bradford board have promised their fans the cheapest season ticket in the country (Around £100 for an adult IIRC) should they reach 12,000 applicants by the end of the season.

 

[GBJ]

But Swansea had a similar size fanbase as us until they moved from the Vetch and now have many more. Football at the top is killing itself. As a successful League One club, we "nicked" many supporters who probably would support prem teams but couldn't afford it. This trend I predict will continue as the fan looks to affiliate himself with a team he can relate to and not just watch from the back of an immense stand with binoculars paying and an absolute fortune for the privilege. Why on earth do you think we'll only attract 4000 fans? What basis have you for that assessment?

Moving onto Darlington, the trouble there is that a) it's 60% rural with many farmers, b) there are less than 100,000 males of any age (including children) that live within 10 miles of Darlington (as opposed to nearly that many males in the Southend district alone) and c) there isn't an event of any description that you could stage up there and attract 30,000 people, which I believe is the stadium capacity. All the above are official governement figures by the way that you can get from the internet if you want to check. We are hardly in the same bracket as them.

You could just as easily look at Reading and Wigan for comparables as to what can be done with a successful team in a bigger stadium. Ok, Dave Whelan has bankrolled Wigan to the top level since he took over in 1995 but they only joined the league in 1978 and have no footballing pedigree, coming from a predominantly rugby town.

Reading are much more like us, having similar ground sizes (Elm Park, not Madelski) and demographics and if you check the Reading website you'll see that the current location plus surrounding areas and facilities at Madejski stadium are pretty much similar to what we will have (or hope to have) at Fossetts.

All we need is someone with Madejski's money...

So what would be your preference then? Stay as we are? Or build a smaller ground like Col U?

As i said, i don't want to go over the "new ground size" again. This thread is about RM, but i'll respond to a few points that you made.

Swansea is almost like an "untapped" source. Cardiff and Swansea are the highest tiered teams in Wales, and most people will support one of the two. Not all, but most. So really Swans had the potential to be bigger. We have to fight against the West Hams/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs/Man Utd/Liverpool fans around this area. While i accept your point that many of the big clubs fans will hget ****ed off at the prices etc etc, i can't see too many giving up on their club to become a full time shrimper, week in, week out. They are more likely to be the fairweather/big game fan.

The reason i think we could end up with 3-4k is because, really that is the reality of relegation. As the form/results/League got better, the crowds rose. If we are relegated, and we return to those days of Div 3, then inevitably the crowds will die away. Don't make the naieve mistake that we could play in L2 with a 7-8k fanbase.

Unfortunately for Darlo, they have 2 big clubs in very close radius to them (similar to us) which have a combined fanbase of anywhere between 100-150k.

 

[GBJ]

And could you remind us who appointed Tilly and Brush and backed them with the funds to pay these players ?? I would say that without RM then we would be supporting a team a darn site lower than the Blue Square Premier.

But Ron's only done what ANY chairman would have. Name specifically what he has done? Fair enough he appointed Tilly, but that was the smartest idea at the time. He has made money for funds, but doesn't the majority of chairmen up and down the country? The fee's for the likes of Freddy and Bailey were peanuts (in todays football terms) and players like Flavs, Gower etc were already here.

The only thing i can see that RM has done, has pushed through the new stadium (which isn't a bad thing) but at what potential cost?

 

[fbm]

As i said, i don't want to go over the "new ground size" again. This thread is about RM, but i'll respond to a few points that you made.

Swansea is almost like an "untapped" source. Cardiff and Swansea are the highest tiered teams in Wales, and most people will support one of the two. Not all, but most. So really Swans had the potential to be bigger. We have to fight against the West Hams/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs/Man Utd/Liverpool fans around this area. While i accept your point that many of the big clubs fans will hget ****ed off at the prices etc etc, i can't see too many giving up on their club to become a full time shrimper, week in, week out. They are more likely to be the fairweather/big game fan.

The reason i think we could end up with 3-4k is because, really that is the reality of relegation. As the form/results/League got better, the crowds rose. If we are relegated, and we return to those days of Div 3, then inevitably the crowds will die away. Don't make the naieve mistake that we could play in L2 with a 7-8k fanbase.
Unfortunately for Darlo, they have 2 big clubs in very close radius to them (similar to us) which have a combined fanbase of anywhere between 100-150k.

Having supported Southend for 40 years, I can assure you that I am fully aware of what the crowds would be if we got relegated and am not in any way naieve about the level of our support. I just don't see what basis you have for thinking we will get relegated... of course it's possible, but it's equally possible (and on recent history more likely) that we'll actually get promoted. We are approaching the time when we traditionally string a few results together and climb the table... we are also in a similar position to where we have been at this stage of the season for the last 2 seasons. We're 13th with 29 points at the moment... last year we were 13th with 30 and the year before 11th with 33. We finished 8th and 6th respectively and whilst a good second half is not a "given" surely the fact that we have just come through what can best be described as a "difficult" period, maintaining the same form that we have shown in the previous 2 seasons, indicates that we at least aren't ready for the drop just yet!

If we can strengthen the side in January, and the signs are that we will now that the embargo has been lifted, then why can we not make the play offs?

All clubs have ups and downs but I'd like us to be able to deal with the ups rather than just settle for the downs.

 

[fbm]

But Ron's only done what ANY chairman would have. Name specifically what he has done? Fair enough he appointed Tilly, but that was the smartest idea at the time. He has made money for funds, but doesn't the majority of chairmen up and down the country? The fee's for the likes of Freddy and Bailey were peanuts (in todays football terms) and players like Flavs, Gower etc were already here.

The only thing i can see that RM has done, has pushed through the new stadium (which isn't a bad thing) but at what potential cost?

But he didn't know that at the time. As Eaststandblue says, the world and his wife were urging SVC to be appointed and the easiest decision for RM to make would be to go with what the fans wanted. He needed courage to go against that weight of pressure.

As it transpires, it has been a fantastic decision, but I believe that the initial appointment was only temporary and if their tenure had been littered with poor results including a cup defeat to Canvey then they wouldn't have been given the job!

It is very easy with hindsight to judge. Having the courage to make the call in the first place is worth much more credit than you're willing to give.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Maybe my memory isn't what it was, but I don't recall Ron rejecting Stanley in favour of Tilly - he rejected Stan because he wanted Ian Atkins from Oxford. When Atkins turned us down, Ron was fortunate that he had a caretaker in place who immediately began to get good results.

 

[GBJ]

Having supported Southend for 40 years, I can assure you that I am fully aware of what the crowds would be if we got relegated and am not in any way naieve about the level of our support. I just don't see what basis you have for thinking we will get relegated... of course it's possible, but it's equally possible (and on recent history more likely) that we'll actually get promoted. We are approaching the time when we traditionally string a few results together and climb the table... we are also in a similar position to where we have been at this stage of the season for the last 2 seasons. We're 13th with 29 points at the moment... last year we were 13th with 30 and the year before 11th with 33. We finished 8th and 6th respectively and whilst a good second half is not a "given" surely the fact that we have just come through what can best be described as a "difficult" period, maintaining the same form that we have shown in the previous 2 seasons, indicates that we at least aren't ready for the drop just yet!

If we can strengthen the side in January, and the signs are that we will now that the embargo has been lifted, then why can we not make the play offs?

All clubs have ups and downs but I'd like us to be able to deal with the ups rather than just settle for the downs.

I'm not saying we'll get relegated (this season or any other season) for definiate, i'm saying if we keep having to rely on the loan market, then there is a big possiblity we could go down. It's pretty obvious the loanees we've had this season have not made the cut. If it wasn't for Barnard then we'd be in big trouble yes or no? What if that happens next year, and we don't have a Lee Barnard to rely on? What if Barny goes in this window and the loanees we get in are poor? We will definitly be in trouble and relegation would be a cert.

Last seasons loanees were top drawer as i've already said, but there's no guarentee we'll get that calibre back here again year in year out.

 

[fbm]

I'm not saying we'll get relegated (this season or any other season) for definiate, i'm saying if we keep having to rely on the loan market, then there is a big possiblity we could go down. It's pretty obvious the loanees we've had this season have not made the cut. If it wasn't for Barnard then we'd be in big trouble yes or no? What if that happens next year, and we don't have a Lee Barnard to rely on? What if Barny goes in this window and the loanees we get in are poor? We will definitly be in trouble and relegation would be a cert.

Last seasons loanees were top drawer as i've already said, but there's no guarentee we'll get that calibre back here again year in year out.

But what if the ones we get in January are good?

I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm old enough to have seen every relegation and promotion this club has ever had so I know what's possible. And there will be a season of relegation at some point in the future just as there will be a season of promotion.

It's what happens in football and you can't turn down a new stadium just because we might be relegated at some point. Suppose Ron sells out to some wealthy owner in the future who bankrolls us to the Prem? We need to be able to try and compete.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Maybe my memory isn't what it was, but I don't recall Ron rejecting Stanley in favour of Tilly - he rejected Stan because he wanted Ian Atkins from Oxford. When Atkins turned us down, Ron was fortunate that he had a caretaker in place who immediately began to get good results.

Correct. Ron got bloody lucky by losing out on Atkins. He has, however, shown good judgment by holding on to Tilly & Brush and fighting off suitors (notably Norwich City).

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

The thing with Ron that has really bugged me in recent transfer windows, is his insistance that Tilson has funds to spend. At the start of last summer he was basking in the transfers that were about to be made, only to issue an apology a month later for being too keen. Just be up front and admit we can't afford new players and we can all get on with it.

 

[Mick]

And of all those talented youngsters, who obviously developed at an early age and were probably thought of as wonder kids at whatever time they made their debuts, I have only ever heard of one of them - Danis Salman, who was a decent-ish journeyman full back who played against us for Brentford in the 1970's and 80's and then did naff all. Here is what a Brentford site (Beesotted) says about him.



So none of them ever really turned into top players - which makes me think maybe being pushed through too early did more harm than good.

You obviously don't recall walking down Alick Jeffrey Way to get to that embarrassing play-off second leg? Alick Jeffrey had a massive future 'til he broke his leg and even after coming back from retirement, scored goals at a good rate of knots.


PS an interesting read:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ey-the-boy-wonder-of-another-time-737573.html

 

[Mick]

And of all those talented youngsters, who obviously developed at an early age and were probably thought of as wonder kids at whatever time they made their debuts, I have only ever heard of one of them - Danis Salman, who was a decent-ish journeyman full back who played against us for Brentford in the 1970's and 80's and then did naff all. Here is what a Brentford site (Beesotted) says about him.



So none of them ever really turned into top players - which makes me think maybe being pushed through too early did more harm than good.

I saw Tony Geidmentis play a number of times. He was a stalwart of around 450 League games, mostly for Workington.

Albert Geldard I didn't see but he played 180 games for Everton. Likewise Ronnie Dix had a good career featuring many appearances for Aston Villa and Derby.

I think it's a little unreasonable to dismiss players to suit your argument simply because you haven't heard of them.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

In his countless blogs, which do as much to confuse as clarify, we have been reassured by our beloved Chairman that the club has a bright future.

This month could well be pivotal to the club's future. Cast your minds back a few short years and many of us were urging Uncle Ron to not let a certain centre forward leave - arguing that to invest and strenghten the squad would generate more revenue than returning to League 1. Barnsley, who were worse than us that year, invested and survived. They are now established at Championship level.

RM chose a different course and now bemoans the loss of revenue as a key reason for our problems.

It is all very well to focus on long term objectives, (the prime beneficiary from which will be Uncle Ron himself as many have alluded to on here) but if in the short term, RM continues to stall on investing in the playing staff, history could soon repeat itself, only this time our League 1 status is at risk.

So now is a good time to start delivering on the promises.

I agree now is a good time to start delivering on the promises, starting with the promise of long term stability for the club. Forget chasing dreams of promotion (if it happens, it happens) and concentrate on ensuring the club has a long term future. If that means ****ing off fans who only live for today so be it. The club needs to get itself on a sound financial footing and that means living within our means.

I expect one or two signings in the transfer window, but it will be wheeling and dealing in the bargain basement on loans and nominal fees rather than the big money signings the more deluded element of our fan base demands.

 

[Boreham Shrimper]

The thing with Ron that has really bugged me in recent transfer windows, is his insistance that Tilson has funds to spend. At the start of last summer he was basking in the transfers that were about to be made, only to issue an apology a month later for being too keen. Just be up front and admit we can't afford new players and we can all get on with it.

I think we all get frustrated when things are said to the effect that we are going to make signings and then nothing/a non-league nobody/some loanee we've never heard of turns up. What we need to remember though is that sometimes these unheard of players have turned out to be very successful (Freddy, Sawyer when he was with us) and some of us have turned out to look quite foolish when we threw our toys out of our prams at not signing a "name".

As for coming clean about our situation, I don't think that's a good idea when there are other clubs that could be looking to come in and pick up our players on the cheap. Yes they know that money is tight but advertising that to all and sundry is surely not the best way of going about keeping them our maximising our return if they do eventually leave us. Unfortunately complete honesty in the public eye is rarely the most successful way of running a business or indeed a football club.

Ron has, I believe, tried to do things in a generally up-front manner but in some cases this is neither possible nor the best thing for the club as a business. The recent situation with HMRC would seem to be an example of this as people have been lead to believe that we would hear every single detail concerning the running of the club. That is not and cannot be the case and it is unfortunate that some people are still labouring under the illusion that it can be so.