To the Doubters

[fbm]

This is not a "fishing" thread, or intended to antagonise or re-open exactly the same types of thread we've had in the last week or so.

But, people like CS J, TonytheKray, Trueblue and everyone else calling for Tillys head, I would be really interested in your honest and sensible responses to these questions.

1) When the fixture list was produced pre-season, did you look down it and expect us to win many games?  I know we all hope to, but did you EXPECT to?

2) Do you honestly believe we can financially compete with the other Championship clubs (except Col******r)?

3) Did you want Tilly to go at the beginning of the season?

4) If, as I suspect, the answers to the above are "No", then what has actually changed which now causes you to feel the way you do?


As I say, these are not rhetorical questions, and I am genuinely interested in sensible responses to the above.

 

[Bigdel]

The problem is we are a very small club swimming with the big fish and after two years of success have not adapted the team to met championship teams on equal terms, the purchase that Tilly /Brush  have brought in are no different to those that he sold, however remember we donot have the money to be able to buy a Hartson to partner Freddy or a Chadwick to help the midfield

Would I get rid of Tilly of course not, it will be a good learning curve for him, and maybe one or two players like Barrett and Prior who in my opinion donot cut it in this division due to one not good enough and the other too old to play each week, may make him realise that loyalty doesnot allways pay

Remember also we donot have a good hard core support maybe 3000 who pay money each week come rain or shine, the others are just people who will turn up for the big occassion, when we go down this seaosn and I fully believe we will, watch the s/t go down, partly due to the team on the pitch ,but also the poor off field show by the club re supporters, cup tickets joke and West Stand fence erected to obstruct supporters view without warning to name but two.

Overall if people expected a miracle this season, then IMHO they donot and havenot followed Southend for longer than two years, those who have witnessed the amazing story with Tilson will appreciate the sterling job he has done on limited budget, however it doesn't mean that he could do with help, either in terms of money from the cup run ( Surely this was not budgeted in this years account) or perhaps a father figure to show him where to improve on the pitch

You only have to look at great managers like Fergie who were one game from the sack at Man Utd, and see if you stick with a manager then success will follow, we have had too many managers at Roots Hall and need to keep this side of things calm, Tilson will steady the ship, but not this season I fear

 

[J]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ Dec. 02 2006,06:35)]This is not a "fishing" thread, or intended to antagonise or re-open exactly the same types of thread we've had in the last week or so.

But, people like CS J, TonytheKray, Trueblue and everyone else calling for Tillys head, I would be really interested in your honest and sensible responses to these questions.

1) When the fixture list was produced pre-season, did you look down it and expect us to win many games?  I know we all hope to, but did you EXPECT to?

2) Do you honestly believe we can financially compete with the other Championship clubs (except Col******r)?

3) Did you want Tilly to go at the beginning of the season?

4) If, as I suspect, the answers to the above are "No", then what has actually changed which now causes you to feel the way you do?


As I say, these are not rhetorical questions, and I am genuinely interested in sensible responses to the above.

not calling for Tilly's head at all..
he deserves a lot of respect.. for what he and Brush have done.

BUT...

i feel that, RM cannot say things like
"Im fully behind tilly, has my vote of confidence etc etc"

well, if we wanted to establish purselves as a championship club, then sacrifices have to be made..

a scenario for you.
We have been in the championship for 4 years, we are floating around mid table, and our manager resigns.. in steps tilly, for 30 games, we win 5 draw 5.. lose 20.

He brings on subs at 89 minutes, and makes expensive and silly buys.. would you have him?

Ok, a certain amount of slack is given, as tilly is a new manager etc etc. and has acheived tremendous things with the club.. but, for the club's survival, sacrifices have to be made.

I for one love tilly, brush etc.. but!! If they cannot do the job, then they are ruining the club, and their own careers as well.

Love live tilly, and southend united..
hopefully he can turn it around today!

 

[The Sudden In Out]

I cannot even begin to perceive that the efforts of Steve Tilson and Paul Brush are "ruining the club" let alone entertain the notion that they have been found wanting by their lack of experience. Knee-jerk reactions do not necessarily produce the required response on the pitch. One has to appreciate understanding between players and coaching staff, something which may well be broken by the installation of a new coaching heirarchy. For my pennyworth, I would suggest bringing in more experience on the coaching side rather than waving money at players that may promise much on paper but ultimately fail to deliver; Graeme Jones anyone?

 

[Shrimp in a Kilt]

For this season to be successful, a number of things had to go right. Ricketts had to come good early, and take up where The Goat left off - but he didn't.

We had to be able to find our best team early, and then stick with it (Colcheater did just that) - It didn't happen, and I feel that the loss of Bradbury so early for so long, especially with Ricketts fannying around, was a much crueler blow than we have acknowledged.

We had to get the rub of the green in our early games, as we did last season - and it didn't happen (eg Coventry, when even they admitted that they were lucky to get any points, let alone all three).

When we won against Man U, we had to turn that momemtum into results in the league, and for three and a half matches we did just that. What happened next would have been a minor setback for a confident team cruising in midtable. For us it was an unmitigated disaster, and undid all the good work that had been put in.

I'm not saying that those are the only factors in our struggle this season, but it was always going to be a knife-edge between survival and relegation, and it was never going to take much either way to make the difference. Sadly, even when things went right something came along to knock us back down again.

The point about Sir AF is a good one. Another point to consider is that we have had more managers in the last 20 years than Wet Spam have had in thier history. When you find a manager who proves that they have what it takes, it pays (and research which I can't find at the momemt but have read backs this up) to stick with them through the bad patches.

 

[Kenny]

I've said this before, I think the "small fish big pond" scenario doesn't wash with a lot of people because of Col U flying high. I'm sure the atmosphere amongst fans would be more forgiving if we were 23rd and Col U were 24th. Col U's situation is slightly different to ours in that they spent a good few years putting together their team that got them promoted from League One. If you look on Soccerbase at their finishes in League One you can see that they gradually got better since 2002/3 with the big push last season. Player for player they have quite a simlar squad to us in terms of Championship experience but the one that sticks out is Cureton. Hopefully Bradbury played upfront will be able to bring something to the table.

Who is the only surviving member of the team that won their playoff final from League Two in 1998.....Karl Duguid! Who are the surviving members of our League Two promotion campaign? Flavs, Spinner, Barrett, Freddy. Gower, Maher and also Che who hasn't really featured this season. Who in our squad were playing in the Conference before they reached us? Flavs, Freddy, Cole, Hooper.

I think continuity is important and Tilson still has a lot to learn at this level. It's frustrating to see, what for us is big money spent and the results haven't been that great (Paynter & Clarke, Ricketts wage packet) yet I still think in the bargain bin Hooper and Harrold were quite shrewd signings. I watched some utter crap under Newman, Alvin, Wignall et al and I refuse to believe that our current performances are worse then what I witnessed back then as some people are suggesting. There must be a lot of amnesia round here as watching Peter Clarke's impersonation of a centre mid and Billy Paynters "shooting" is still miles better then paying to watch Barrington Belgrave, Mark Beard and Gordon Connelly strut their stuff week in week out.

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (CS J @ Dec. 02 2006,09:16)]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ Dec. 02 2006,06:35)]This is not a "fishing" thread, or intended to antagonise or re-open exactly the same types of thread we've had in the last week or so.

But, people like CS J, TonytheKray, Trueblue and everyone else calling for Tillys head, I would be really interested in your honest and sensible responses to these questions.

1) When the fixture list was produced pre-season, did you look down it and expect us to win many games?  I know we all hope to, but did you EXPECT to?

2) Do you honestly believe we can financially compete with the other Championship clubs (except Col******r)?

3) Did you want Tilly to go at the beginning of the season?

4) If, as I suspect, the answers to the above are "No", then what has actually changed which now causes you to feel the way you do?


As I say, these are not rhetorical questions, and I am genuinely interested in sensible responses to the above.

not calling for Tilly's head at all..
he deserves a lot of respect.. for what he and Brush have done.

BUT...

i feel that, RM cannot say things like
"Im fully behind tilly, has my vote of confidence etc etc"

well, if we wanted to establish purselves as a championship club, then sacrifices have to be made..

a scenario for you.
We have been in the championship for 4 years, we are floating around mid table, and our manager resigns.. in steps tilly, for 30 games, we win 5 draw 5.. lose 20.

He brings on subs at 89 minutes, and makes expensive and silly buys.. would you have him?

Ok, a certain amount of slack is given, as tilly is a new manager etc etc. and has acheived tremendous things with the club.. but, for the club's survival, sacrifices have to be made.

I for one love tilly, brush etc.. but!! If they cannot do the job, then they are ruining the club, and their own careers as well.

Love live tilly, and southend united..
hopefully he can turn it around today!

There's some interesting points there, but the only problem I can see is that you have used a hypothetical scenario of a manager coming into an established Championship club and getting them relegated.

Under those conditions of course, we would be calling for the managers head.  I totally agree with you on that.

But we are not an established CCC side and Tilly and Brush got us to where we are in the first place. Judging by my conversation with him (after the Port Vale game last year) he thought then that we would do very, very well to even consolidate in league one.

Even when we were at the top he refused to talk about going up until the very last knockings and to be honest we only won the title because everyone else conspired to lose it.

He wanted to consolidate but won us the title.  Should he now be effectively punished because he has provided the success we all craved?

As for the substitutions, yes, sometimes they may seem too late but he's learning.  He knows what he wants from the players and will only change something if he thinks it will improve the situation.  Because of our squad size and bad luck with injuries, his options have been limited.  And lets face it, hindsight is a wonderful thing.  We all know what SHOULD have happened after the event but knowing what action to take in advance is the difficult bit.

To be honest I don't think ANY football manager needs to be told that his job is on the line if the team doesn't perform.  The words "job security" and "football manager" don't really sit well together in very many places.

Lots of jokes are made about the dreaded "vote of confidence" but very few people can perform under that sort of pressure.  Some respond, sure, but for most it just induces stress and failure.

Now is the time for solidarity and support, not panic and change.  As I said in another thread, I would much rather yo-yo between the Championship and league one rather than leagues one and two, the latter of which has the threat of dropping out of the league altogether.

I know it's frustrating but to be fair, a tough season was expected.  The problem is that we also thought that last year and it didn't materialise, so our expectation levels have been raised again, probably to an unrealistic level.

Tilly will know when he has taken thios club as far as he can.  Until then, I would go as far as to say he has a job for life.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Quote[/b] (Kenny @ Dec. 02 2006,11:39)]I've said this before, I think the "small fish big pond" scenario doesn't wash with a lot of people because of Col U flying high. I'm sure the atmosphere amongst fans would be more forgiving if we were 23rd and Col U were 24th. Col U's situation is slightly different to ours in that they spent a good few years putting together their team that got them promoted from League One. If you look on Soccerbase at their finishes in League One you can see that they gradually got better since 2002/3 with the big push last season. Player for player they have quite a simlar squad to us in terms of Championship experience but the one that sticks out is Cureton. Hopefully Bradbury played upfront will be able to bring something to the table.

Who is the only surviving member of the team that won their playoff final from League Two in 1998.....Karl Duguid! Who are the surviving members of our League Two promotion campaign? Flavs, Spinner, Barrett, Freddy. Gower, Maher and also Che who hasn't really featured this season. Who in our squad were playing in the Conference before they reached us? Flavs, Freddy, Cole, Hooper.

I think continuity is important and Tilson still has a lot to learn at this level. It's frustrating to see, what for us is big money spent and the results haven't been that great (Paynter & Clarke, Ricketts wage packet) yet I still think in the bargain bin Hooper and Harrold were quite shrewd signings. I watched some utter crap under Newman, Alvin, Wignall et al and I refuse to believe that our current performances are worse then what I witnessed back then as some people are suggesting. There must be a lot of amnesia round here as watching Peter Clarke's impersonation of a centre mid and Billy Paynters "shooting" is still miles better then paying to watch Barrington Belgrave, Mark Beard and Gordon Connelly strut their stuff week in week out.

Good shout and one I happen to agree with.

Regarding the Col******r scenario, it has to also be remembered that in Geraint Williams they have a manager with a good grounding in Championship football. I've heard it said from a few Col U supporters I know that he has quite an extensive contacts list which, if we're honest, cannot be said for either Tilly or Brush.

If we hadn't been promoted last season and found ourselves in the same position in League 1 as we do now in the CCC then I would be seriously questioning Tilly & Brush and their managerial ability, but anyone in charge of Southend United that had had just three years experience in management and with the limited resources available would, IMO, struggle in the CCC in the same way we have so far.


Phil

 

[Csboy]

Some very sensible posts on this thread at the moment and not one person saying that Tilson should be sacked.
I expect the few idiots saying Tilson should be fired really don't know much about Southend United and are just the bandwagon fans who will only watch the club while they are winning.

I just hope Tilson and Brush are with us for many years to come. Even if we don't come straight back up next season. Tilson should be given time to build a promotion winning side even if it takes a couple of years. The most important thing is Southend United has a decent side come the time to move into the new stadium. Just imagine the sort of crowds we could get at the new stadium if we were doing well?

 

[overseas shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Csboy @ Dec. 02 2006,13:27)]I expect the few idiots saying Tilson should be fired really don't know much about Southend United and are just the bandwagon fans who will only watch the club while they are winning.

Yes, some very good posts on this thread.

I wouldn't call those calling for Tilson's head 'idiots'. I don't agree with them, but they have their views. I can see where they're coming from to a certain extent. It just depends on your perspective of things.

Also, you are very wrong to assume those calling for 'Tilson out' are newbies to all things SUFC. To name but two, there's Tony the Kray (who's been watching the Shrimpers for a few years) and (I think) Blue Shrimp (who, if I remember correctly) has been watching the Shrimpers for possibly longer than you and I put together.

As for the Col Ewe issue... well... that's football. Yes, I agree that it could have something to do with them having built their squad over a number of seasons in League 1... but some detractors may point to the fact that we finished above them in league 1 last season.

Sometimes you cannot explain things that happen in football and that finish last season is one of them. We had the rub of the green. We were good enough for league 1. You could say Col Ewe were unlucky to have us and our luck spoil - what should have been - their championship year. Remember that amazing unbeaten run they went on? That showed how good they were.

Finally, Williams has used his better contacts to strengthen Col Ewe better than Tilly strengthened SUFC. It's pot luck sometimes and things just haven't gone right for us.

Tilly in.