Jail the ex Nazi?

[Shrimpin]

To get an accurate answer should the question not be 'participate in genocide or be killed'?

Ok then I choose genoice, than rather die thanks , yourself??

 

[rigsby]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32392594

I see Groening has admitted his "moral guilt."

I think millions of Germans who lived through that era and many more since have admitted to 'moral guilt'

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think millions of Germans who lived through that era and many more since have admitted to 'moral guilt'

But there hasn't been a public apology for the bombing of Dresden, (to the best of my knowledge).That was most certainly a war crime.

As always in war, it helps if you're on the winning side.:smiles:

 

[Shrimpin]

Ok then I choose genoice, than rather die thanks , yourself??

i think maybe taking a step back from it all, I hope we never have to be in a position where we have to make that choice. the mear thought of either makes me shudder. I just feel that my personal opinion would be if I had to flick a coin one side was to kill (however many people) the other be killed, I would kind hope that kill came back down face up, I think thats my point..

 

[Shrimpin]

But there hasn't been a public apology for the bombing of Dresden, (to the best of my knowledge).That was most certainly a war crime.

As always in war, it helps if you're on the winning side.:smiles:

and there lays a good point, sit in your planes on the run way and wait for the german airforce to bomb you, or follow orders from your wing comander, get up in the skys and tip your bombs out on a german city.......

no ill sit on the runway than you wing comander...... (it wouldnt happen)

 

[LCBB72]

But there hasn't been a public apology for the bombing of Dresden, (to the best of my knowledge).That was most certainly a war crime.

As always in war, it helps if you're on the winning side.:smiles:

Did they say sorry for bombing London .

 

[rigsby]

But there hasn't been a public apology for the bombing of Dresden, (to the best of my knowledge).That was most certainly a war crime.

As always in war, it helps if you're on the winning side.:smiles:

I know lets put some 93 year old RAF veterans on trial for war crimes, after all they had a choice could have refused the order to bomb German cities.

So tell me what exactly would you have done at the time. Dragged out the war and allowed the genocide to continue perhaps

 

[londonblue]

Ok then I choose genoice, than rather die thanks , yourself??

But that wasn't the choice. The choice was be involved in genocide or be a proper soldier, i.e. be what you signed up to be.

 

[Benfleet A1]

But there hasn't been a public apology for the bombing of Dresden, (to the best of my knowledge).That was most certainly a war crime.

As always in war, it helps if you're on the winning side.:smiles:

I must have missed the same apology for Coventry, London. Glasgow. Plymouth, Liverpool, etc, etc.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I know lets put some 93 year old RAF veterans on trial for war crimes, after all they had a choice could have refused the order to bomb German cities.

So tell me what exactly would you have done at the time. Dragged out the war and allowed the genocide to continue perhaps

Sorry I don't do hypotheticals.

However,I've said before now that I hope I would have had the courage to fight in WW2 and not in WW1.

 

[londonblue]

I know lets put some 93 year old RAF veterans on trial for war crimes, after all they had a choice could have refused the order to bomb German cities.

So tell me what exactly would you have done at the time. Dragged out the war and allowed the genocide to continue perhaps

Based on this from Wikipedia about the bombing of Dresden, I don't think you'd have much of a case:

Legal considerations[edit]
See also: Aerial bombardment and international law § International law up to 1945
The Hague Conventions, addressing the codes of wartime conduct on land and at sea, were adopted before the rise of air power. Despite repeated diplomatic attempts to update international humanitarian law to include aerial warfare, it was not updated before the outbreak of World War II. The absence of positive international humanitarian law does not mean that the laws of war did not cover aerial warfare, but there was no general agreement of how to interpret those laws.[119]

I haven't read all of the page because it goes on too long. However, that paragraph would probably explain why the pilots didn't think they were doing anything wrong, i.e. at the time the law wasn't clear.

That is entirely different to a soldier who knowingly participates in genocide which was covered by the convention.

Going back to the main point. This guy has admitted he's guilty. He was actually quite honourable because he spoke out against holocaust deniers, and admitted to being there.

If he wants to use the "following orders" argument he can. It might work, it might not. We can debate until the cows come home, but we aren't in Germany, and don't get to decide. My view, however, is that he should stand trial. If he's then found guilty (i.e. his defence arguments, whatever they happen to be fail) then it will be up to the court to decide if he's too old/infirm etc to go to jail.

 

[rigsby]

i think maybe taking a step back from it all, I hope we never have to be in a position where we have to make that choice. the mear thought of either makes me shudder. I just feel that my personal opinion would be if I had to flick a coin one side was to kill (however many people) the other be killed, I would kind hope that kill came back down face up, I think thats my point..

Many Jews in the camps had to make that very choice and became Kapos. Which meant they had privileges and survived but had to help run the camp and participate in mass murder of their own people.

Easy to make moral judgements on our key boards in 2015. Not so easy to survive starvation torture and freezing to death in a Nazi concentration camp

 

[londonblue]

Many Jews in the camps had to make that very choice and became Kapos. Which meant they had privileges and survived but had to help run the camp and participate in mass murder of their own people.

Easy to make moral judgements on our key boards in 2015. Not so easy to survive starvation torture and freezing to death in a Nazi concentration camp

Indeed they did, and most of those were killed by the Nazis as well. They were killed every six months (if memory serves - it could have been weeks) to minimise the chances of stories getting out.

As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, a lot of the worst jobs were saved for the citizens of the occupied countries. If these people would have objected they would have been killed, although in these cases, they were killed anyway.

 

[rigsby]

Sorry I don't do hypotheticals.

However,I've said before now that I hope I would have had the courage to fight in WW2 and not in WW1.

Which is another way of saying... I've made a stupid left wing statement and can't back it up.

I'm very pleased you can choose which war you fancy. The poor B******* in the trenches in WW1 never had that option. Nor did they ever witness any of the privileges you now enjoy.

The 55,000 personnel of Bomber Command who gave their life over the skies of Europe played a major role in the defeat of Hitler. To defend German cities from aerial attack required some 2 million men, hundreds of planes and crucially 10,000 of the Germans best anti tank gun the 88mm. This was a huge help to both Russia in the East and the Allies on the Western front.

On behalf of all those brave lads who gave their lives and who are not hear defend themselves. I say to you Mr spineless that you are a disgrace to your country and I am ashamed that you support Southend United

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

this is really difficult. What would you or I have done when told to shoot innocent people or be shot or our families arrested. After the war Milgram did a series of experiements on obedience in the US. They make sobering reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Based on this from Wikipedia about the bombing of Dresden, I don't think you'd have much of a case:



I haven't read all of the page because it goes on too long. However, that paragraph would probably explain why the pilots didn't think they were doing anything wrong, i.e. at the time the law wasn't clear.

That is entirely different to a soldier who knowingly participates in genocide which was covered by the convention.

Going back to the main point. This guy has admitted he's guilty. He was actually quite honourable because he spoke out against holocaust deniers, and admitted to being there.

If he wants to use the "following orders" argument he can. It might work, it might not. We can debate until the cows come home, but we aren't in Germany, and don't get to decide. My view, however, is that he should stand trial. If he's then found guilty (i.e. his defence arguments, whatever they happen to be fail) then it will be up to the court to decide if he's too old/infirm etc to go to jail.

He has been quoted as stating that he asked for a transfer but was knocked back.

 

[Eastblack]

He has been quoted as stating that he asked for a transfer but was knocked back.

I thought he got his transfer and was sent to Ardennes where he was captured and sent to a PoW Camp. That's according to the Telegraph.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Which is another way of saying... I've made a stupid left wing statement and can't back it up.

I'm very pleased you can choose which war you fancy. The poor B******* in the trenches in WW1 never had that option. Nor did they ever witness any of the privileges you now enjoy.

The 55,000 personnel of Bomber Command who gave their life over the skies of Europe played a major role in the defeat of Hitler. To defend German cities from aerial attack required some 2 million men, hundreds of planes and crucially 10,000 of the Germans best anti tank gun the 88mm. This was a huge help to both Russia in the East and the Allies on the Western front.

On behalf of all those brave lads who gave their lives and who are not hear defend themselves. I say to you Mr spineless that you are a disgrace to your country and I am ashamed that you support Southend United

No doubt you've heard of Conscientious objectors (co's)?

I'll be there on Saturday supporting my home town team.

 

[Benfleet A1]

No doubt you've heard of Conscientious objectors (co's)?

I'll be there on Saturday supporting my home town team.

To Dresden it would seem but not any of the UK cities that were bombed. Forget to conscientious object to those did you?

 

[steveo]

But there hasn't been a public apology for the bombing of Dresden, (to the best of my knowledge).That was most certainly a war crime.

Unlike you to take the anti British side Barna.

From a quick look round the internet - I don't have a copy of the Guardian with me - it appears 25,000 died in the bombing of a city with 110 factories supporting the German war effort.

Over 40,000 people had been killed during the Blitz by the end of May 1941.

Where is the crime?