Old subject revisited

[Sean 2]

If that was my lad that got stabbed, i'd kill them all myself before it got to court. Or in court. Or in prison. Either way, i'd get them.
So, if the State wants to hang them and save me the bother, fine.
There's no way they would have any sort of enjoyment out of life when they took the life from my boy.
You would call me a murderer, say i'm as bad as them fair enough. But as a father i would take their lives, even if i got killed myself in doing so.

And if it happens tomorrow, the police won't have to look far for evidence, just a glance at my admission here on SZ!

 

[duncan bulgaria]

If that was my lad that got stabbed, i'd kill them all myself before it got to court. Or in court. Or in prison. Either way, i'd get them.
So, if the State wants to hang them and save me the bother, fine.
There's no way they would have any sort of enjoyment out of life when they took the life from my boy.
You would call me a murderer, say i'm as bad as them fair enough. But as a father i would take their lives, even if i got killed myself in doing so.

And if it happens tomorrow, the police won't have to look far for evidence, just a glance at my admission here on SZ!

ark at John Rambo !!

 

[pickledseal]

Lucky you. Bet you cant wait

Not too bad being out in the sun all day, shame about all the Y9s, but hey-ho!

 

[The Big Shrimp]

I would be in favour of the death penalty, providing they were caught in the act on film or too many witnesses for it not to be them. Its when they are convicted on fingerprints, DNA etc i.e. when nobody has seen them do it, that I wouldn't be happy. There are too many corrupt people in this world for me to be 100% happy. On this basis alone, I would want them to serve life on an Alcatraz type island (Canvey?)

Life must mean life or at least a lot more than the 15 years they serve now!

 

[Sean 2]

ark at John Rambo !!

:cool::)

I just wanna destroy. It's in me, i know it. All it would take is a tiny thing like my son getting stabbed up to set it off. Then it'd be the killer hunting the killers. It's all about the retribution you see. That's inherant, handed down in most forms from ancestors.
Every bloke would want an eye for an eye, it's in us. Even MK Shrimper.


Or do i watch too many videos?:unsure:

 

[Desert Shrimper]

It's all about access. We'd all want to kill these people if they did it to one of our family but it's the access that would be the problem seeing as they would be in prison and under recent rules, heavily protected from retribution.

Kind of linked to this but not - someone I know very well told me a few days ago that he recently smacked a child rapist in the face when the cameras weren't looking and he's a long-term copper. He said stuff like that happens all the time as the coppers have little faith in the British criminal justice system to always do the job for them.....

 

[Sean 2]

It's all about access. We'd all want to kill these people if they did it to one of our family but it's the access that would be the problem seeing as they would be in prison and under recent rules, heavily protected from retribution.

Kind of linked to this but not - someone I know very well told me a few days ago that he recently smacked a child rapist in the face when the cameras weren't looking and he's a long-term copper. He said stuff like that happens all the time as the coppers have little faith in the British criminal justice system to always do the job for them.....

So i dress up as a copper then. Think i've got one of those in the wardrobe...

 

[osymandus]

Just been announced they will all serve a minimum of 19 years. So knowing our legal system they will be out in 5!!!:madman:

You dont know it that well then , it measn they will serve 19 years min.

 

[Cricko]

This is a tough argument....An eye for eye serves no justice..but the ideal that kids or teenagers think it ok to carry a knife ..(don't they call it for protection)..is madness...there should be a 5 year sentence for anyboby who carries a knife and spot checks....Society is running rampant...kids do not fear short term prison to play on PS' 3 or Nintendo with there mates and THEN come out with promised flats, grants and any help they want to establish themselves again

What a crock of shyte.

 

[DTS]

This is a tough argument....An eye for eye serves no justice..but the ideal that kids or teenagers think it ok to carry a knife ..(don't they call it for protection)..is madness...there should be a 5 year sentence for anyboby who carries a knife and spot checks....Society is running rampant...kids do not fear short term prison to play on PS' 3 or Nintendo with there mates and THEN come out with promised flats, grants and any help they want to establish themselves again

What a crock of shyte.

I would like to see jail actually make people work. It should be a lifetime of ****ing slog. Not all this bollocks about recreation time etc.

I watched the Louis Theroux programme about some Peados jail in American and they were having a sing song and drinking fruit cocktails etc. Where is the justice for the familys or the victims.

Work for 18 hours a day would be a fair punishment I feel.

 

[Cricko]

I think they should work to...how is a lesser sentance of CS where they have to work harder than a few months rest in some open prison.

 

[Andyhsufc]

I think with anything that attracts a life sentence and involves violence (i.e. murder, manslaughter, rape, serious GBH), it should be two strikes and you are out. With the first act, they should be sentenced anything upwards from 20 years (no reduction for good behaviour etc) depending on the circumstances.

If they then commit another act which attracts a life sentence and involves violence, they should be imprisoned with life without parole.

I think this would strike a fair balance between giving people a second chance and protecting the public from scum.

PS. I would also re-classify a "life sentence" as having to be a minimum of 20 years.

 

[South Bank Hank]

I've always been in favour of the death sentence for the most heinous crimes but some of the previous debate we've had on here made me less entrenched in the view. The biggest problem for me is the numerous people who've been found to be innocent after their conviction. With the death penalty, there's no coming back!

MK is probably right in saying that the death penalty won't make a difference (as shown in the US) but then it's rarely ever about one thing. As Clinton Baptiste put above, it IS the wider problems in society that cause the problems.

So is the question about stopping future crimes or is it about punishment?

For me, these things will reduce future crimes as a deterrent and provide sufficient punishment:

* 10 year minimum sentence for carrying a knife as "intent to murder"

* 2 hours per day maximum on recreation when inside where "recreation" means watching approved TV programmes or DVDs that drive the right behaviour. Recreation in this way leads to rehabilitation. No computer games, no individual-choice.

* 8 hours per day WORKING for the UK society within their prisons. Much of the thinking behind games and TVs is to do with the authorities having to manage a bored prison society. The answer to their boredom if you remove TVs is to put the prisoners to work. Teach the inmates how to build and let THEM build the new prisons. Otherwise, use their existing skills and work out how to put them to good use within the confines of the walls. Failure to comply with work orders? Enjoy your solitary confinement lads.

* 3 strikes and you're out. If you can't operate in society, we'll take you out of it.

* The SBH legal-suicide law. When you decide, in cold blood, to take the life of another human being, you commit an act of suicide. Simple as that. When you know the law regarding murder leads to your own death, then you are your own executioner. It's not someone else taking your eye for the eye you took, it's you who is responsible for taking both. This is reserved for murders where there can be absolutely NO doubt. I don't know how we get to that point, but there will be a way if people put their minds to it.

* Bright pink vests - For lesser crimes where no good can be served from sending the offenders to prison, offenders are put to work outside of jails in work gangs clearing polluted waterways, removing grafiti, weeding parks, etc - all done wearing the pink vest (which carries the detail of their crime across the shoulders like a players name of the football shirt). Random checks are carried out by mobile units to ensure that work-gang managers are not threatened to let people shirk their duty.

 

[steveo]

MK is probably right in saying that the death penalty won't make a difference (as shown in the US) but then it's rarely ever about one thing.

All good points Hank. The main difference with us and the U.S is that we dont allow guns so we have a head start on them there. If the knife laws you describe were bought in it would be a massive step forward.

Something the U.S do, which - to my knowledge- we dont - is make some of their prisoners do crappy jobs.
If you venture off the tourist track in Florida, its quite common to see gangs of Prisoners clearing bushes, grass and undergrowth along the sides of roads.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Agree with a lot of that G except the bit about taking the life of another in cold blood. It's back to the Tony Martin scenario and other similar cases - if it's in defence of your property, your family or yourself and you shoot to kill does that mean you've forfeited your own life?

As I've said before, in the current day and age, with DNA testing, if a murderer is brought to trial and found guilty of a crime involving deliberate and pre-meditated murder with absolutely no shadow of a doubt then imo, they should be despatched forthwith. I also advocate the same outcome for those convicted of any series of sexual attacks of a certain degree of seriousness, or if not, then chemical castration.

 

[Lord Football]

Mahmood Mattan

Derek Bentley

Timothy Evans

Three people who were unjustly executed by British Government immediately prior to abolision. Three people basically murdered by the legal system for crimes they did not commit. How many more "murderers" have been released since abolision after it was found they could not have committed their crimes? Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Carl Bridgewater murders, etc etc. If we'd kept the penalty, these people would be dead now. Killed by the state. Killed by society. Killed by us.

The death penalty is not a deterrant, people still committed murders when we had the death penalty and would continue to do so if it were introduced. If you don't believe me, take a look at the number of people on death row in the USA.

The death penalty is nothing more than social revenge.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Mahmood Mattan

Derek Bentley

Timothy Evans

Three people who were unjustly executed by British Government immediately prior to abolision. Three people basically murdered by the legal system for crimes they did not commit. How many more "murderers" have been released since abolision after it was found they could not have committed their crimes? Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Carl Bridgewater murders, etc etc. If we'd kept the penalty, these people would be dead now. Killed by the state. Killed by society. Killed by us.

The death penalty is not a deterrant, people still committed murders when we had the death penalty and would continue to do so if it were introduced. If you don't believe me, take a look at the number of people on death row in the USA.

The death penalty is nothing more than social revenge.

You've got the wrong Evans there LF.

The irony of the Bentley case of course is that Christopher Craig who pulled the trigger is now walking around a free man, because when the crime was committed he was I believe 17, and he escaped the rope.

Being old enough to remember the case of Brady & Hindley they would almost certainly have hung but the death penalty was abolished the previous year. I have over the years changed my mind and cannot support the death penalty. I found it rather satisfying that Hindley died without gaining freedom, and similarly that Brady will die behind bars.

My only proviso is that a life sentence is exactly that, life in prison with no recourse to parole.

 

[osymandus]

The problem is we focus here on teh sentanecs we would like to see , the prohjection of our own ideas of punishment . Revenge by proxy almost . The legal system cannot be run like this (and isnt ) for teh most part the sentances are very well judged and put forth , remember the information your recieve on it will be filtered via NON-LEGAL minds.

Another point to be shown is criminals become progressivly worets , its the smallest proprtion of people who are "made" or born what we would deem evil or to beable to plan and excetute murders. Theifs and other minor criminals need to be given other opportunities so they do not return to crime , that simple . Goal , Jail , incasaration has been shown not to work on its own it is not a deterrant. People who break laws continuiously can get to teh point where they dont give a crap about the rest of socitey which then becomes reinforced by being rejected and removed from it.

In the real old days exile worked , here and now sadly not . We look back far to often for the simplest solution. Alot of these people are "sick" (murders , Peados espically), remove them to places where they can be studied so we can help prevent other people becoming like them.

 

[steveo]

Mahmood Mattan

Derek Bentley

Timothy Evans

Three people who were unjustly executed by British Government immediately prior to abolision. Three people basically murdered by the legal system for crimes they did not commit. How many more "murderers" have been released since abolision after it was found they could not have committed their crimes? Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Carl Bridgewater murders, etc etc. If we'd kept the penalty, these people would be dead now. Killed by the state. Killed by society. Killed by us.

The death penalty is not a deterrant, people still committed murders when we had the death penalty and would continue to do so if it were introduced. If you don't believe me, take a look at the number of people on death row in the USA.

The death penalty is nothing more than social revenge.

DNA evidence would not have existed for these chaps so the chances of proving guilty are surely higher now.

With regard to the USA death row people, how many are there for shooting someone? If it was illegal to have a gun over there how many wouldnt have killed? Im only guessing but it must be a lot harder to stab someone to death than shoot them.

 

[MK Shrimper]

DNA evidence would not have existed for these chaps so the chances of proving guilty are surely higher now.

With regard to the USA death row people, how many are there for shooting someone? If it was illegal to have a gun over there how many wouldnt have killed? Im only guessing but it must be a lot harder to stab someone to death than shoot them.

Steveo, if you read a book called Freakonomics the vast majority of people on Death Row statistically live LONGER than if they remained on the streets. Make of that what you will.