Are some people so thick?

[fbm]

Every week we now get the usual "Ron must go" type thread.

When will people understand?

WE CAN'T GET RID OF HIM. HE OWNS THE CLUB. IT'S HIS. HE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that he is or isn't doing a good job, does or doesn't tell us the truth, has or hasn't released the blogs he promised or has the clubs best interest at heart or not.

It's like trying to get your neighbours out because they're noisy and messy and you want new ones. If your neighbours own the house, then unless they want to sell and someone buys it you're stuck with them.

He isn't like a player that can be dropped, or a non shareholding CEO that has been voted in and is doing such a bad job that he can be voted out again. He can't even be sacked. He is the employer - he answers to no one. If every shareholder voted against him they'd still lose because he will have the overall majority shareholding.

He can't even step down - he has nowhere to go. He is responsible for everything that happens at the club. The only way he will go is if he somehow loses control of the club (i.e. going into administration, which is why I very much doubt it will happen) or if he wants to sell. And if a consortium with £150m can't prise the club rom his grasp then surely it's pretty clear he's in for the long haul.

So - for heavens sake - get over it.

 

[Jay_Shrimper]

Fantastic post fbm.

Was trying to write something similiar, but you've summed it up better than what I could have done.

Some people need to get real. :punch:

 

[Hotman]

Every week we now get the usual "Ron must go" type thread.

When will people understand?

WE CAN'T GET RID OF HIM. HE OWNS THE CLUB. IT'S HIS. HE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that he is or isn't doing a good job, does or doesn't tell us the truth, has or hasn't released the blogs he promised or has the clubs best interest at heart or not.

It's like trying to get your neighbours out because they're noisy and messy and you want new ones. If your neighbours own the house, then unless they want to sell and someone buys it you're stuck with them.

He isn't like a player that can be dropped, or a non shareholding CEO that has been voted in and is doing such a bad job that he can be voted out again. He can't even be sacked. He is the employer - he answers to no one. If every shareholder voted against him they'd still lose because he will have the overall majority shareholding.

He can't even step down - he has nowhere to go. He is responsible for everything that happens at the club. The only way he will go is if he somehow loses control of the club (i.e. going into administration, which is why I very much doubt it will happen) or if he wants to sell. And if a consortium with £150m can't prise the club rom his grasp then surely it's pretty clear he's in for the long haul.

So - for heavens sake - get over it.

I would suggest that he is answerable to the Football league, holding the golden share.

I'd also suggest that any majority shareholder is ultimately answerable to external stakeholders in any free market - in SUFC terms, this is the local community, fans, suppliers etc... Yes he might hold the cards, but he's not stupid (wouldn't be to get in that position), and most know when to fold when things aren't going their way. So speaking up is a reasonable thing for stakeholders to do if unsatisfied.

 

[Swiss Tony]

Fantastic post fbm.

Was trying to write something similiar, but you've summed it up better than what I could have done.

Some people need to get real. :punch:

I think thats the problem,people are getting real,and can see league 2 in view and approaching fast,why do you not see that?it's not as if these people are being disloyal,just bloody worried.

 

[The Big Shrimp]

I would suggest that he is answerable to the Football league, holding the golden share.

I'd also suggest that any majority shareholder is ultimately answerable to external stakeholders in any free market - in SUFC terms, this is the local community, fans, suppliers etc... Yes he might hold the cards, but he's not stupid (wouldn't be to get in that position), and most know when to fold when things aren't going their way. So speaking up is a reasonable thing for stakeholders to do if unsatisfied.

Spot on!

So wanting shot of RM makes us all thick? Bollocks! He may own the shares, but as Vic Jobson found out, people will & can vote with their feet.

Look what happened the arrogant owner of Ratners. The same MIGHT happen here. So much positive work is being undone & RM's BS, spin or arrogance will undo this. Face facts, we have a lot of glory hunters who enjoyed the good days at Cardiff, Chelski or Man U, but they are slowly drifting away because of this crap that is going on now. RM spouts these massive long blogs, but says nothing we haven't heard before or nothing of substance.

Do we want to become like Darlington? It could happen, we've had those crowds before & could do again. Don't forget, like it or not, we have a lot of fans who support/follow Wet Spam, Spurs or whoever & could drift off again.

If RM was straight with us or wasn't so arrogant, it would be easier to back him, as we should be. Unfortunately, RM is in this for RM & not us the fans, we're the mugs turning up each week!

 

[EastStandBlue]

Spot on!

So wanting shot of RM makes us all thick? Bollocks! He may own the shares, but as Vic Jobson found out, people will & can vote with their feet.

Look what happened the arrogant owner of Ratners. The same MIGHT happen here. So much positive work is being undone & RM's BS, spin or arrogance will undo this. Face facts, we have a lot of glory hunters who enjoyed the good days at Cardiff, Chelski or Man U, but they are slowly drifting away because of this crap that is going on now. RM spouts these massive long blogs, but says nothing we haven't heard before or nothing of substance.

Do we want to become like Darlington? It could happen, we've had those crowds before & could do again. Don't forget, like it or not, we have a lot of fans who support/follow Wet Spam, Spurs or whoever & could drift off again.

If RM was straight with us or wasn't so arrogant, it would be easier to back him, as we should be. Unfortunately, RM is in this for RM & not us the fans, we're the mugs turning up each week!

So much positive work is being undone? Positive work like what exactly? I'm guessing you're talking about the two successive promotions. If you ask me, RM never planned for these and I actually think they were a hugely unwelcome distraction. People wanted signings of a calibre and wage and that's what they got... It wasn't wise for the club to do so, but can you imagine the furore if we didn't sign anybody?

It's not RM's "arrogance, BS or spin" that is undoing this, it's the financial constraints we find ourselves under that is the root cause of a lack of quality on the field. Once again, RM is partly to blame for this but not many clubs have been hit a harder by the recession than us... We were just unlucky that the economic climate changed so harshly at a time we were in the middle of a huge project.

It's this project that is the light at the end of the tunnel, however, and it's the Stadium that is the single most vital development in this club's history. Like it or lump it, it's Ron Martin that has got us closest to the dream and we're in touching distance of it now. We've had our fair share of obstacles, but it's plain to see that developments are forthcoming. We're nearing the end and as soon as a shovel is thrown in anger, I'm guessing a considerable amount of discontent on here will vanish.

As for the Darlington comment, they're a club with historically low crowds in an area dominated by clubs with cult followings, Newcastle and Sunderland. A build of that size was always going to be daunting for the club because it had no other source of income other than being an arena that would never be filled.

 

[Jay_Shrimper]

I think thats the problem,people are getting real,and can see league 2 in view and approaching fast,why do you not see that?it's not as if these people are being disloyal,just bloody worried.

As bad as we are, there are worse teams in this league.

There are still 16 games to go, of which half (8) of them are at home. If we, the fans, get behind them at home anything is possible.

The defense we have till the end of the season with a bit of continuity (Francis - M'Voto - Baldwin - Barrett) is potentially one of the strongest in the league, and definitely in the top 6. On their day, with match fitness and a bit of bonding I would fancy them to keep most people quite. We know how good M'voto is from earlier in the season before he got injured and when he returns to that standard he will be a beast again. With Baldwin a solid CB in this league and able to motivate people, with Barrett coming up the wing like he did yesterday, the defense is certainly going to improve with the more games they get together under their belt.

Tilson reckons we need 18 more points to get us to the magical 50 point barrier, which is only 6 wins.

As the table stands we still have to play Hartlepool, Exeter, Gillingham and Brighton who are all still below us in the table. If we manage to get 4 wins (although I'm not saying we will), that will take the pressure off of us big time.

(A) Mk Dons
(A) Norwich
(H) Charlton
(A) Hartlepool
(H) Exeter
(H) Carlisle
(H) Walsall
(A) Bristol Rovers
(H) Yeovil
(A) Gillingham
(A) Leeds
(H) Brentford
(H) Brighton
(A) Oldham
(H) Stockport
(A) Southampton

If people want to write us off for the drop already at this stage of the season, then do it at your own peril.

There will be plenty of ups and downs during the rest of the season but I am sure, come 6pm on Sat 8th May we will still be in this league.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

As bad as we are, there are worse teams in this league.

There are still 16 games to go, of which half (8) of them are at home. If we, the fans, get behind them at home anything is possible.

The defense we have till the end of the season with a bit of continuity (Francis - M'Voto - Baldwin - Barrett) is potentially one of the strongest in the league, and definitely in the top 6. On their day, with match fitness and a bit of bonding I would fancy them to keep most people quite. We know how good M'voto is from earlier in the season before he got injured and when he returns to that standard he will be a beast again. With Baldwin a solid CB in this league and able to motivate people, with Barrett coming up the wing like he did yesterday, the defense is certainly going to improve with the more games they get together under their belt.

Tilson reckons we need 18 more points to get us to the magical 50 point barrier, which is only 6 wins.

As the table stands we still have to play Hartlepool, Exeter, Gillingham and Brighton who are all still below us in the table. If we manage to get 4 wins (although I'm not saying we will), that will take the pressure off of us big time.

(A) Mk Dons
(A) Norwich
(H) Charlton
(A) Hartlepool
(H) Exeter
(H) Carlisle
(H) Walsall
(A) Bristol Rovers
(H) Yeovil
(A) Gillingham
(A) Leeds
(H) Brentford
(H) Brighton
(A) Oldham
(H) Stockport
(A) Southampton

If people want to write us off for the drop already at this stage of the season, then do it at your own peril.

There will be plenty of ups and downs during the rest of the season but I am sure, come 6pm on Sat 8th May we will still be in this league.

If our previous 16 league games are anything to go by, we're struggling. 4 wins I make it, all of which were whilst Barnard was still with us.

 

[RobM]

If our previous 16 league games are anything to go by, we're struggling. 4 wins I make it, all of which were whilst Barnard was still with us.

...and that shows the predicament we are in.

 

[Beefy]

I think that Ron Martin has a lot to answer for in terms of his irresponsible over-spending in the past (which we all wanted, by the way). With the collapse of the economy and the delays on the stadium he's no longer in a position to subsidise our losses hence the mess that we're in cashflow-wise right now.

I also think that he hasn't helped himself with how open he has been. He probably tells us more than any other chairman in the League but all people seem to be interested in doing is commenting on the things that he has not told us and using things he has said which haven't happened (early signings last summer, the infamous warchest, etc) against him.

Personally, I'm a pragmatist. I like to deal with realities. And the reality of this situation are as follows:

1) After ten years and a huge amount of time and effort on his part he's not going to walk away at a time when potentially we're just weeks away from building work starting at both Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm.

2) Ron Martin and his companies own the ground and they own the land at Fossetts Farm. If he leaves then he could bury us if he wanted to and even if he didn't we'd still be a Club with no assets and no money. We don't own Roots Hall and will have to leave sooner or later.

3) Non-payment or delayed payment of bills, drastically reducing expenses (primarily wages) and getting money in as early as possible (early season ticket sales) are classic signs of a company with a severe cashflow problem. You can have as much debt as you like on your books (see Manchester United) but as long as you have the cashflow to meet interest payments and your basic expenditure requirements then it's not a big problem. But we clearly don't. People have the right to vote with their feet and withdraw their financial support but need to remember that Cash is King and there's a very real possibility that the Club will cease to exist.

4) We sold Roots Hall a decade ago. At that moment we lost the right to decide our own future. Everything which has happened since then has been a direct consequence. Here and now we have no assets and we're reliant solely on a financial backer, and one who is likely to see Southend United's future as being secondary to their own financial gain. There's no question that Ron Martin got involved here for the love of football. He got involved because he recognised the huge profits he could make off of the back of the Club. If he leaves then our only hope is that another property developer sees the same thing and this one may not be so willing to spend money on players, subsidise our losses and spend big on a top stadium when something much smaller and cheaper could be built. Surely it's better the devil you know?

 

[Sean 2]

Let's hope we don't need a result away at Southampton on the last day.

I can see the last home game as a rejoice with Tilly, Brush and the players doing a lap of RH after securing staying up, wild scenes with Ron at his bouffant self joining in on the pitch with the celebration of the newly announced Fossetts Farm stadium building works commencing the very next day!

 

[Mick]

If you ask me, RM never planned for these and I actually think they were a hugely unwelcome distraction. People wanted signings of a calibre and wage and that's what they got... It wasn't wise for the club to do so, but can you imagine the furore if we didn't sign anybody?

I think this is a myth; we didn't break the bank buying players over the odds in a frenzied spending spree. The players we got in were actually inadequate for the Championship, as evidenced by the subsequent relegation, and if we gave them contracts paying Championship money after relegation that was negligence personified.

I personally think most of the money has been spent chasing the dream and I don't think there has been a transparent presentation of the division of footballing income being split between footballing expenditure and development expenditure.

 

[Mick]

Let's hope we don't need a result away at Southampton on the last day.

I can see the last home game as a rejoice with Tilly, Brush and the players doing a lap of RH after securing staying up, wild scenes with Ron at his bouffant self joining in on the pitch with the celebration of the newly announced Fossetts Farm stadium building works commencing the very next day!

On a Sunday at double time, no chance.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I think that Ron Martin has a lot to answer for in terms of his irresponsible over-spending in the past (which we all wanted, by the way). With the collapse of the economy and the delays on the stadium he's no longer in a position to subsidise our losses hence the mess that we're in cashflow-wise right now.

I also think that he hasn't helped himself with how open he has been. He probably tells us more than any other chairman in the League but all people seem to be interested in doing is commenting on the things that he has not told us and using things he has said which haven't happened (early signings last summer, the infamous warchest, etc) against him.

Personally, I'm a pragmatist. I like to deal with realities. And the reality of this situation are as follows:

1) After ten years and a huge amount of time and effort on his part he's not going to walk away at a time when potentially we're just weeks away from building work starting at both Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm.

2) Ron Martin and his companies own the ground and they own the land at Fossetts Farm. If he leaves then he could bury us if he wanted to and even if he didn't we'd still be a Club with no assets and no money. We don't own Roots Hall and will have to leave sooner or later.

3) Non-payment or delayed payment of bills, drastically reducing expenses (primarily wages) and getting money in as early as possible (early season ticket sales) are classic signs of a company with a severe cashflow problem. You can have as much debt as you like on your books (see Manchester United) but as long as you have the cashflow to meet interest payments and your basic expenditure requirements then it's not a big problem. But we clearly don't. People have the right to vote with their feet and withdraw their financial support but need to remember that Cash is King and there's a very real possibility that the Club will cease to exist.

4) We sold Roots Hall a decade ago. At that moment we lost the right to decide our own future. Everything which has happened since then has been a direct consequence. Here and now we have no assets and we're reliant solely on a financial backer, and one who is likely to see Southend United's future as being secondary to their own financial gain. There's no question that Ron Martin got involved here for the love of football. He got involved because he recognised the huge profits he could make off of the back of the Club. If he leaves then our only hope is that another property developer sees the same thing and this one may not be so willing to spend money on players, subsidise our losses and spend big on a top stadium when something much smaller and cheaper could be built. Surely it's better the devil you know?

Couldn't have put it better myself...

 

[fbm]

I think this is a myth; we didn't break the bank buying players over the odds in a frenzied spending spree. The players we got in were actually inadequate for the Championship, as evidenced by the subsequent relegation, and if we gave them contracts paying Championship money after relegation that was negligence personified.

I personally think most of the money has been spent chasing the dream and I don't think there has been a transparent presentation of the division of footballing income being split between footballing expenditure and development expenditure.

Unfortunately only hindsight has enabled you to arrive at that viewpoint. The fact remains that the players we signed were the only ones we could sign and actually we weren't far off being able to stay in the CCC... we were hardly cast adrift at the bottom.

Looking back we can easily judge. It's not so easy playing the game in real time.

 

[RobM]

Here's my view.

Ron Martin, like so many, was caught out by the recession. A certain company I know lost over £100 million last year because he demand for their product has dropped. They couldn't foresee that - hardly their fault. SUFC is no different. Why should he risk his personal wealth? He's not a charity after all!

 

[Beefy]

I personally think most of the money has been spent chasing the dream and I don't think there has been a transparent presentation of the division of footballing income being split between footballing expenditure and development expenditure.

Yes there has. It's 100% footballing expenditure and 0% development expenditure. That's transparent form the break down of the administrative expenses in the accounts.

The development has diverted funds from Ron's other companies which might otherwise have been used for the football club, but again the only reason those funds have been used in the past is on the back of the development. You take that development away and we're a Club who were making footballing losses even back in 2001/2002 when we had a low wage bill and weren't spending money on transfer fees.

 

[Beefy]

Here's my view.

Ron Martin, like so many, was caught out by the recession. A certain company I know lost over £100 million last year because he demand for their product has dropped. They couldn't foresee that - hardly their fault. SUFC is no different. Why should he risk his personal wealth? He's not a charity after all!

I don't think he's got any personal wealth. Not in comparison to other footballing chairmen anyway. The recession hasn't hit Southend United. It's hit the housing and banking sectors which, for a highly-leveraged property developer hoping to borrow more than £50m for a housing/retail/sporting development was a disaster.

 

[Beefy]

Unfortunately only hindsight has enabled you to arrive at that viewpoint. The fact remains that the players we signed were the only ones we could sign and actually we weren't far off being able to stay in the CCC... we were hardly cast adrift at the bottom.

Looking back we can easily judge. It's not so easy playing the game in real time.

the problem wasn't the players which we signed in the Championship. We actually made a small trading profit that year (albeit on the back of the sale of Eastwood and the League Cup run). The problem really was the financial commitments the next season where we had players on big money and then spent £600k+ on players to try to get promoted again. It's probably not as easy as this but considering that we were always going to struggle to stay up the decision to sign players on three year deals on Championship money when we'd only be earning Championship money for one year was a terrible one.

Even then though, the gap between our income and our expenditure was being bridged by the Chairman, the Board and the associated companies. The problem is that now the economy means that they can't afford to cover those losses and with the delays on the new stadium reaching the point where there has to be doubt over whether it will even happen it doesn't make any business sense for them to subsidise a football club.

 

[RobM]

I don't think he's got any personal wealth. Not in comparison to other footballing chairmen anyway. The recession hasn't hit Southend United. It's hit the housing and banking sectors which, for a highly-leveraged property developer hoping to borrow more than £50m for a housing/retail/sporting development was a disaster.

Really? You mean to say there are supporters that haven't lost their jobs and cannot afford to go? That sponsors are not considering sponsoring in the future?

Beefy, you talk sense most of the time but your comment is pure twaddle. When banks struggle e v e r y b o d y does.

Feel free to disagree though!