Brexit negotiations thread

[Lord Football]

Indeed. I can see a bit of civil unrest on the cards despite which way Brexit turns out, especially if things start to run out.

Whilst "things running out" is the end result of a valid logical path, I don't think it will get to that stage because Government would bring in contingencies to stop that happening. Of course, those contingencies may not be to everyone's liking - both domestically and internationally.

What is, and always has been clear, is that Chequers is not something that the EU would ever agree to. Essentially, the Government have spent a year arguing over options that were never going to work.

I think we are now in a three way chess game. The EU will push the UK to a No Deal exit, which isn't in anyone's interest, in the hope that UKG will crumble and either stay or remain in regulatory alignment.

JRM and co would like a no deal exit but have no real concept how that could operate.

May will attempt to cling to power, whilst not selling out her version of Brexit. Which is a difficult tight tope to walk.

Personal view.... a transitional deal that keeps us in until the end of 2020, whilst having no say in the direction of travel. That at least gives us breathing space to introduce a workable system and rules.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

It doesn't look as though Macron would be happy with the outcome you suggest in your last paragraph.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/03/emmanuel-macron-stresses-opposition-to-blind-brexit

Yet does Macron and his ideas for Europe have a wide degree of support amongst EU members?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I’ve seen some unrest today sadly. I think it was the prawns I had last night though

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...g-fluttering-boris-attacks-mays-chequers-plan

Good Youtube video from The Grauniad here on Brexit.Though it doesn't really address the Irish border situation,which I've thought for sometimer will be the dealbreaker issue,

 

[rigsby]

School holidays are over tomorrow. No doubt proud parents of MPs will be flooding facebook with pictures of their little darlings in their shiney new suits and dresses all ready for the new term. it wont be long before they're standing up and shouting abuse at each and fighting with each other.

Regardless of where we sit on this subject, the country is broken and divided, and I really can't see it being healed for a generation.

It could be easily healed, if only the losers would except defeat more graciously.

Instead of at best foot dragging at worst deliberate sabotage or treason. Why don’t you remoaners get on board and lend a positive hand to those of us that have finally given the next generation some hope.

Oh and please don’t take this personal Lordy, I’ll have a beer with you at Shrewsbury or Wycombe.

 

[Lord Football]

It could be easily healed, if only the losers would except defeat more graciously.

Instead of at best foot dragging at worst deliberate sabotage or treason. Why don’t you remoaners get on board and lend a positive hand to those of us that have finally given the next generation some hope.

Oh and please don’t take this personal Lordy, I’ll have a beer with you at Shrewsbury or Wycombe.

No offence taken at all......

I don't think its about winners or losers. Certainly phrases like "remoaners" don't aid the debate, neither do "sabotage" or "treason". In fact the last two words, banded about by the MSM have done a considerable amount of damage. I do not think it is treasonable to suggest something isn't going to work. "Sabotage" is an interesting choice of word as well... But that's not for a public forum. ;)

I think its about the complete mishandling of this entire charade, from the referendum announcement, the campaign, the result, the scaremongering (on both sides), the lack of a co-hesive plan, the blame game, the Parliamentary shenanigans etc etc.

When I was Vice President of PCS, I was aware that I lived in a bubble. And PCS politics overtook the needs of the members at times. I never realised how bad it actually was until I was outside of that bubble. The same thing is happening with the Conservative Party who've got themselves entrenched in an internal punch up at the exclusion of progressing this issue. Ministers and ex-ministers taking up personal positions for personal gain, and just doing damage to the whole process. However you look at it, its 4 September, and we're still no closer to understanding what will happen. Imagine being the poor sods who have to get this to work in that timeframe!!!

There was a brilliant debate on Newsnight last night, which I think summed up the problem.

May wont change her mind. To do so would risk her Premiership.
Chequers isn't acceptable to the EU or to either wing of the Conservative Party
It is unlikely any deal or agreement will get through Parliament (especially if Labour come out for a second referendum).

So whilst I sit here with my technocrat head on, going "that wont work because...." and "if you do that, this will happen. Have you thought of that?" The real issues are considerably more fundamental than that.

It is worrying when in a 45 minute long programme, the person who makes the most sensible contribution is JRM. He said "we need a Canada type agreement". That solves all the trade problems - just that thorny issue of Northern Ireland to work out.

I'll see you at Wycombe., you must owe loads of beers by now x

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

It could be easily healed, if only the losers would except defeat more graciously.

Instead of at best foot dragging at worst deliberate sabotage or treason. Why don’t you remoaners get on board and lend a positive hand to those of us that have finally given the next generation some hope.

Oh and please don’t take this personal Lordy, I’ll have a beer with you at Shrewsbury or Wycombe.

Perhaps not everyone agrees with assisted suicide?

 

[rigsby]

Perhaps not everyone agrees with assisted suicide?

To be honest Yogi. I have alaways thought your posts sum up the EU and why we voted out....Just perfectly.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

No offence taken at all......

I don't think its about winners or losers. Certainly phrases like "remoaners" don't aid the debate, neither do "sabotage" or "treason". In fact the last two words, banded about by the MSM have done a considerable amount of damage. I do not think it is treasonable to suggest something isn't going to work. "Sabotage" is an interesting choice of word as well... But that's not for a public forum. ;)

I think its about the complete mishandling of this entire charade, from the referendum announcement, the campaign, the result, the scaremongering (on both sides), the lack of a co-hesive plan, the blame game, the Parliamentary shenanigans etc etc.

When I was Vice President of PCS, I was aware that I lived in a bubble. And PCS politics overtook the needs of the members at times. I never realised how bad it actually was until I was outside of that bubble. The same thing is happening with the Conservative Party who've got themselves entrenched in an internal punch up at the exclusion of progressing this issue. Ministers and ex-ministers taking up personal positions for personal gain, and just doing damage to the whole process. However you look at it, its 4 September, and we're still no closer to understanding what will happen. Imagine being the poor sods who have to get this to work in that timeframe!!!

There was a brilliant debate on Newsnight last night, which I think summed up the problem.

May wont change her mind. To do so would risk her Premiership.
Chequers isn't acceptable to the EU or to either wing of the Conservative Party
It is unlikely any deal or agreement will get through Parliament (especially if Labour come out for a second referendum).

So whilst I sit here with my technocrat head on, going "that wont work because...." and "if you do that, this will happen. Have you thought of that?" The real issues are considerably more fundamental than that.

It is worrying when in a 45 minute long programme, the person who makes the most sensible contribution is JRM. He said "we need a Canada type agreement". That solves all the trade problems - just that thorny issue of Northern Ireland to work out.

I'll see you at Wycombe., you must owe loads of beers by now x

Sorry was going to reply..........changed my mind........and then found no way of deleting, apart from posting!

 

[Ricky Otto]

It could be easily healed, if only the losers would except defeat more graciously.

Instead of at best foot dragging at worst deliberate sabotage or treason. Why don’t you remoaners get on board and lend a positive hand to those of us that have finally given the next generation some hope.

Oh and please don’t take this personal Lordy, I’ll have a beer with you at Shrewsbury or Wycombe.

I'm not blind, I don't see the EU as a wonderful utopia. If we could have delivered the Brexit that some campaigners were selling then it would have been the way to go. It was naïve to think that was ever possible though as it is out of our control and we rely on agreement from the EU.

Remainers not getting on board doesn't make a blind bit of difference, the EU are not going to give us a deal that puts us in a better position regardless of how many people in this country are behind it, they hold the best cards. Straight after the referendum there was a perfect opportunity for Boris to lead this "great revolution" he spoke of but he knew it doomed to fail so he stepped back, as did Farage, so they could claim betrayal later.

I don't blame people for wanting something more but it's not obtainable. I honestly think that those who still think its a good idea given the overwhelming evidence that the country will be in a much worse position are stubborn to the point of idiocy, something my Dad wasn't impressed with when I told him.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

To be honest Yogi. I have alaways thought your posts sum up the EU and why we voted out....Just perfectly.

I've never hidden my remain views in the same way as you've never hidden your pro-Brexit opinions. The idea that people like me will change our opinion about something we feel so profoundly wrong as Brexit, is as likely as people, such as you, becoming remainers. I'm afraid that's the kind of mess and division the UK (Cameron?) has got itself into.
Surely, even you must flinch at the shambolic charade of negotiations over the last two years, where this present government is still trying to negotiate a position with itself rather than the EU?

 

[BaBaRaRaCuCuDaDa]

I often wonder how much of the referendum vote was about two fingers up to the whole establishment.
My own opinion is we've already got the best deal from the EU we're likely to get i.e. in the EU but not in the Euro and I think our biggest issue of EU views on immigration have shifted in our direction since 2016.
It's left UK politics is in a mess, a remainer PM trying to negotiate Brexit and and a leaver Leader of the opposition barely bothering to hold her to account. Corbyn is the Tories biggest electoral asset at the moment. What a shambles.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

When you see the Tories in complete disarray, you search, sadly in vain, for the opposition to have a clear and positive stance. I'm sorry Barna and A.S.S. (and other Labour supporters) this interview by McDonnell is slippery, evasive and completely uncredible. It's complete tosh!

https://www.channel4.com/news/john-mcdonnell-on-brexit

Even the Tories accept that Brexit will (initially........so they say) damage the British economy. Not true says McDonnell...........not the way Labour would negotiate it! They would get a deal that is even more BINO (Brexit in name only) than the Chequers proposals and with this Labour would unite the country!!! (hahahahah). He said that he wants to respect the referendum result (hahahaha!) He also wants to prevent UKIP and the far right rising again (I'm sure UKIP, the far right and all those who voted for a serious Brexit will unite and rally around that position!) This is just a joke isn't it? When confronted with the accusation that they couldn't have it both ways, he just went into denial. Actually, McDonnell didn't rule out a second referendum, in fact he didn't rule out anything, apart from anything that would commit the Labour Party to a firm position on Brexit. I totally despair with the state of British politics at the moment. The Tories are a disaster. Labour don't really appear to give a damn about Brexit, nor the will of the British people, all that concerns them is trying to force a General Election, where they believe Corbyn would be victorious. With the anti-semitism row and the brewing attempt to de-select Labour MP's who don't fit into the Corbyn mould...............I certainly wouldn't be sure about that.
GOD! What is worse; A Tory Party that keep kicking the can down the road because they can't agree on anything; or a Labour Party who refuse to come off the fence and won't commit to anything?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

When you see the Tories in complete disarray, you search, sadly in vain, for the opposition to have a clear and positive stance. I'm sorry Barna and A.S.S. (and other Labour supporters) this interview by McDonnell is slippery, evasive and completely uncredible. It's complete tosh!

https://www.channel4.com/news/john-mcdonnell-on-brexit

Even the Tories accept that Brexit will (initially........so they say) damage the British economy. Not true says McDonnell...........not the way Labour would negotiate it! They would get a deal that is even more BINO (Brexit in name only) than the Chequers proposals and with this Labour would unite the country!!! (hahahahah). He said that he wants to respect the referendum result (hahahaha!) He also wants to prevent UKIP and the far right rising again (I'm sure UKIP, the far right and all those who voted for a serious Brexit will unite and rally around that position!) This is just a joke isn't it? When confronted with the accusation that they couldn't have it both ways, he just went into denial. Actually, McDonnell didn't rule out a second referendum, in fact he didn't rule out anything, apart from anything that would commit the Labour Party to a firm position on Brexit. I totally despair with the state of British politics at the moment. The Tories are a disaster. Labour don't really appear to give a damn about Brexit, nor the will of the British people, all that concerns them is trying to force a General Election, where they believe Corbyn would be victorious. With the anti-semitism row and the brewing attempt to de-select Labour MP's who don't fit into the Corbyn mould...............I certainly wouldn't be sure about that.
GOD! What is worse; A Tory Party that keep kicking the can down the road because they can't agree on anything; or a Labour Party who refuse to come off the fence and won't commit to anything?

McDonnell pointed out in that same C4 interview that a general election is the way out of the present impasse and not a second referendum.He's right.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

McDonnell pointed out in that same C4 interview that a general election is the way out of the present impasse and not a second referendum.He's right.

No he's not right! In a sense this is normal politicking and anyone can understand why he would be calling for a General Election. Firstly, the result of any General Election is far from certain and we could well end further up the same impasse for the reasons I mentioned above. Secondly, this is a 'Brexit Negotiations Thread' and with Labour (deliberately) confused on the issue I just don't see how it would advance the situation. Perhaps I do Labour a disservice, they do have a vague policy which appears to be BINO...........but don't say it too loudly lest it offends those droves of Labour supporters who voted for Brexit (though I think they may now be having second thoughts). Yet how they hope to unite the country around this position, I'm not quite sure and I won't even ask how they believe this result will be superior, or even anywhere equal, to our present position in the EU. He claims the need to be faithful to the referendum result yet I'd imagine his proposals don't correspond at all to what the great majority of Brexiters voted for.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No he's not right! In a sense this is normal politicking and anyone can understand why he would be calling for a General Election. Firstly, the result of any General Election is far from certain and we could well end further up the same impasse for the reasons I mentioned above. Secondly, this is a 'Brexit Negotiations Thread' and with Labour (deliberately) confused on the issue I just don't see how it would advance the situation. Perhaps I do Labour a disservice, they do have a vague policy which appears to be BINO...........but don't say it too loudly lest it offends those droves of Labour supporters who voted for Brexit (though I think they may now be having second thoughts). Yet how they hope to unite the country around this position, I'm not quite sure and I won't even ask how they believe this result will be superior, or even anywhere equal, to our present position in the EU. He claims the need to be faithful to the referendum result yet I'd imagine his proposals don't correspond at all to what the great majority of Brexiters voted for.

JM made it quite clear in that C4 interview yesterday, (which I saw live), that Labour are not confused on Brexit.The party is actively calling for membership of a customs union,which the Tories are not.Incidentally,this would solve the Irish border issue.The only other possible practical solution to that-which Mrs May has already rejected-would be for a border in the middle of the Irish sea.

The manufactured anti-semitism row in Labour is nothing more than a media trope. CLP's are fully entitled to select (or deselect) whoever they wish to represent them.

If there is a GE in 2022 or before Labour will win it,especially if the Tories **** up a Brexit deal,which is looking more likely by the minute.

 

[rigsby]

JM made it quite clear in that C4 interview yesterday, (which I saw live), that Labour are not confused on Brexit.The party is actively calling for membership of a customs union,which the Tories are not.Incidentally,this would solve the Irish border issue.The only other possible practical solution to that-which Mrs May has already rejected-would be for a border in the middle of the Irish sea.

The manufactured anti-semitism row in Labour is nothing more than a media trope. CLP's are fully entitled to select (or deselect) whoever they wish to represent them.

If there is a GE in 2022 or before Labour will win it,especially if the Tories **** up a Brexit deal,which is looking more likely by the minute.

The Irish border problem is easy to solve. They just have to see sense and leave......Job done.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The Irish border problem is easy to solve. They just have to see sense and leave......Job done.

Ha! Don't think many in the Republic would share your view.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

JM made it quite clear in that C4 interview yesterday, (which I saw live), that Labour are not confused on Brexit.The party is actively calling for membership of a customs union,which the Tories are not.Incidentally,this would solve the Irish border issue.The only other possible practical solution to that-which Mrs May has already rejected-would be for a border in the middle of the Irish sea.

The manufactured anti-semitism row in Labour is nothing more than a media trope. CLP's are fully entitled to select (or deselect) whoever they wish to represent them.

If there is a GE in 2022 or before Labour will win it,especially if the Tories **** up a Brexit deal,which is looking more likely by the minute.

Yes, as I said, Labour's position appears to be BINO (Full access to the Single Market and Customs union) https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-whats-labours-position-on-the-single-market ...........still waiting for someone to explain two things. Firstly, how does that fulfill the spirit of Brexit and satisfy those who voted to leave the EU? Secondly, and even more importantly, how can you stand with a straight and honest face, claiming that you can get a good deal when it will be vastly inferior to what we already have in the EU?
As far as the internal wrangles within the Labour Party go..........that's not my affair. You are entitled to believe that antisemitism and candidate selection are minor issues of no consequence. I only pointed it out because not everyone may view it in that way and it is likely to be a factor in the next election. There are three other reasons Labour may not find the next election 'a walk in the park' 1) Corbyn is likely to be put under far more scrutiny, I doubt he'll have as easy a ride as last time. 2) Don't know whether the proposed boundary changes will come into effect before the poll........if so, it won't help Labour or the Lib Dems. 3) I can't believe the Tories will make such a mess of a campaign as last time.

 

[Ricky Otto]

The Irish border problem is easy to solve. They just have to see sense and leave......Job done.

See sense? Do you know how much they are cashing in on companies moving over there from here as they want to be domiciled in an English speaking country that has access to the single market. Ireland will do alright out of brexit