Brexit negotiations thread

[Massimo Giovanni]

The answer? That is literaly a £100 billion question and as such I can not believe that all this clever people supposedly running this show can not come up with it. For me, if I was Barnier or Juncker and May I would express dismay at the proceedings, go back to stage 1 in a parrellel process and try for a deal that Cammie didnt get but which offered more reform to the UK alongside a re-instated assessment of the EU. If the UK opts out of EU bits that it doesn't want to be part of but pays for the projects etc and NATO stuff then a balance might be found.If a deal can be worked put the in out question back to the voters..
That is just a poor answer I know in many ways and no doubt cries of democracy, people voted etc are fair BUT the over riding desire must be to get the best result for us and the EU not political point scoring.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Ask yourself the same question.

I’m not seeing anything new from either side on this. I’m certainly not seeing anyone changing their opinions. But I’m definitely seeing the same old repetition of arguments with no one listening from both sides. As I see it, there’s no reason Yogi should pay you more respect than you’re paying him. You definitely seem intent on shutting down his view. And I don’t care which way you or he voted.

What amazes me is the absolute certainty being assumed in this thread by many about why 17 million people voted a certain way - whether for or against, with the absolute certainty that they took some heroic stand for the good of their country. Doesn’t matter what side, it’s a ridiculous assertion.

There are so many reasons the vote when as it did, but the piece that sticks in the craw is that it was just about the shadiest, dirtiest, ugliest episode of politics this country ever wrote for itself. But what should we expect from our politicians when our approach is to just continue the same bull**** fight without any respect for the other side’s opinions.

I'm afraid one thing that sticks in my craw is that whilst the great majority contributing on here had the right to participate in the 2016 referendum, that privelege was not extended to me. I and others like me living in Europe, who are caught by the fifteen year law, had no say in something which could profoundly change our lives.
I think the impasse on here sums up the situation in the country. One of the reasons Cameron called the referendum was to unite the Tory party. He certainly hasn't done that but what he has achieved is to expose a deeply divided nation with both sides passionately persuaded that their cause is the right one. How we get out of this mess, God only knows.
One feels that we are approaching some kind of end................but maybe it is just the end of the beginning? I think Brexit would have been easier to swallow for remainers, if many of the promises made would have been kept. Sadly, if we end up with any deal it is likely to be one that will disappoint and upset both sides.

 

[Bielzibubz]

The arrogance is astonishing! Why should you have a say in the direction this country takes when you haven't lived here for 15 plus years and probably won't ever come back to?

 

[Benfleet A1]

The arrogance is astonishing! Why should you have a say in the direction this country takes when you haven't lived here for 15 plus years and probably won't ever come back to?

He might not have that choice and unlike another expat on here, yogi shows serious concern for this country, not just snipeing from the sidelines.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The arrogance is astonishing! Why should you have a say in the direction this country takes when you haven't lived here for 15 plus years and probably won't ever come back to?

You'll no doubt be amazed to learn that people from civilised countries,such as France, (like my wife) have a vote for life in French elections,no matter where or how long they reside abroad.

Incidentally,the 15 year rule in the UK, is currently due to be voted on early next year.

 

[rigsby]

You'll no doubt be amazed to learn that people from civilised countries,such as France, (like my wife) have a vote for life in French elections,no matter where or how long they reside abroad.

Incidentally,the 15 year rule in the UK, is currently due to be voted on early next year.

Let’s hope it reduced to 5 years.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Can I please make an appeal for calm on this thread. Clearly, there are differing views and sometimes these are diametrically opposed. There is value in all of the opinions expressed, as well as scope for critique in all cases.

Can we please at least respect the right of others to hold a different opinion, and recognise that changing those opinions is unlikely?

If we do that with respect then we can continue to debate this complex subject in an atmosphere of mutual respect despite firmly held and justifiable (on all sides) skepticism, worry or optimism.

We don’t know what the future holds but I think we all agree we want it to be as beneficial for all as possible. Whatever happens, we will need to try to make it work and we will need to work together to do that.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Can I please make an appeal for calm on this thread. Clearly, there are differing views and sometimes these are diametrically opposed. There is value in all of the opinions expressed, as well as scope for critique in all cases.

Can we please at least respect the right of others to hold a different opinion, and recognise that changing those opinions is unlikely?

If we do that with respect then we can continue to debate this complex subject in an atmosphere of mutual respect despite firmly held and justifiable (on all sides) skepticism, worry or optimism.

We don’t know what the future holds but I think we all agree we want it to be as beneficial for all as possible. Whatever happens, we will need to try to make it work and we will need to work together to do that.

Yes, it certainly has become a war of attrition with both sides firmly dug into their own trenches. I can imagine it has become tiresome for those not deeply committed to one side or the other, rather like a perpetual PM's question time. SZ sadly just reflects what is going on in the country and it is difficult to see something we can all unify around especially when leavers can't agree amongst themselves on the method of exit (and I'm not making a cheap political point ).
Yet isn't the ferocity of the Brexit debate symptomatic of a rather larger problem and it may be interesting to reflect on what has transformed a one time tiny minority (considered crackpot at that time), into a group that has won a majority (albeit tiny) vote in a referendum. I don't think it has been achieved just by a loathing for the EU as an institution. When people are happy..............they have secure employment, salaries that permit them to live within their means, with perhaps a little extra, are optimistic for the future.........they are rather more prepared to put up with the inadequecies of the european and even our political shortcomings. They have other things to do.......getting on with their lives........rather than dwelling on worries, distrust and blame That situation has changed radically since the economic crash, the government is no longer able to offer the hope and prosperity people relied on. Add to this the fears coming from the rise of radical terrorism and lack of security comes into the mix. People are no longer happy and in this kind of atmosphere there are always those who chose to exploit the situation and search for scapegoats...........I think the EU has become one of those scapegoats Didn't the real rise of UKIP only occur after the crash? Brexit, in my belief, is a symptom of deeper ills in society (and not just in the UK). The very worrying thing is that I doubt Brexit, which ever way it goes, will resolve these problems and with many forecasting the possibility of another crash in the near future, it should be something both sides of the Brexit divide should be very concerned about.

 

[rigsby]

Ok yogi why don’t you give us the majority some convincing reasons why Brexit will fail.

I dont just mean scare stories from the HSB news (also known as the Guardian) or nonsense like were are better together.

You have already listed NHS when in fact Brexit wil save money for the NHS.

Employment laws.... We can vote for stricketer rules and better conditions than the EU if we want.

Immigration we could pick the best people from around the world rather than having to accept convicted EU rapists..... and murderers of course.

When Corbyn sweeps to power in the landslide some people expect, he could clamp down on every tax avoiding company who currently use other EU countries and rules to avoid the £billions on profits made in Britain.

If we can’t spend a single penny with the EU in a trade war that would mean a £100b boost to the UK economy.

As for you 50 year predictions why are the worlds wealthiest setting up in London. Because Britain has been the safest place in the world for 1000 years. The EU had failed because of its dangerous politics, they know it’s a risk they won’t take... We in Britain will absolutely profit from your mistakes.

Deep down I think you know this.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Ok yogi why don’t you give us the majority some convincing reasons why Brexit will fail.

I dont just mean scare stories from the HSB news (also known as the Guardian) or nonsense like were are better together.

You have already listed NHS when in fact Brexit wil save money for the NHS.

Employment laws.... We can vote for stricketer rules and better conditions than the EU if we want.

Immigration we could pick the best people from around the world rather than having to accept convicted EU rapists..... and murderers of course.

When Corbyn sweeps to power in the landslide some people expect, he could clamp down on every tax avoiding company who currently use other EU countries and rules to avoid the £billions on profits made in Britain.

If we can’t spend a single penny with the EU in a trade war that would mean a £100b boost to the UK economy.

As for you 50 year predictions why are the worlds wealthiest setting up in London. Because Britain has been the safest place in the world for 1000 years. The EU had failed because of its dangerous politics, they know it’s a risk they won’t take... We in Britain will absolutely profit from your mistakes.

Deep down I think you know this.

Sometimes you REALLY have to make an effort to be polite on here and refuse to take the bait. I am as enrenched as you are in my views but I do, at times, try and see a wider perspective. I have, at least, attempted to pay heed to the complaints of South Bank Hank in yesterday's post. He may be 'a dog with a zone'...........you are quite clearly like 'a dog with a bone' and worse, one that refuses to learn new tricks. I do admit to regressing at times but I shall stay away from this invitation to hurl pointless and futile arguments yet again............it gets us nowhere and wastes time I could be spending on more productive things. I don't know any more than you, whether Brexit will fail. My position is that I'm not prepared to take the risk that it may do...............you obviously believe the opposite...........why don't we leave it there?

 

[rigsby]

The call was for debate. I offered you the chance.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The call was for debate. I offered you the chance.

With respect, your idea of "debate" is flaming other people who have views different from your own.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Let’s hope it reduced to 5 years.

The proposal,if it ever gets on the statute book-it's still a private members bill,which make its chance of acceptance more limited-is for a vote for life.Just like in France etc.

 

[RHB]

With respect, your idea of "debate" is flaming other people who have views different from your own.

When I was unfortunate enough to still be working, when somebody used 'with respect' in a sentence it actually meant 'shove it up your arse'.

 

[Ricky Otto]

The call was for debate. I offered you the chance.

Ok yogi why don’t you give us the majority some convincing reasons why Brexit will fail.

I dont just mean scare stories from the HSB news (also known as the Guardian) or nonsense like were are better together.

You have already listed NHS when in fact Brexit wil save money for the NHS.

Employment laws.... We can vote for stricketer rules and better conditions than the EU if we want.

Immigration we could pick the best people from around the world rather than having to accept convicted EU rapists..... and murderers of course.

When Corbyn sweeps to power in the landslide some people expect, he could clamp down on every tax avoiding company who currently use other EU countries and rules to avoid the £billions on profits made in Britain.

If we can’t spend a single penny with the EU in a trade war that would mean a £100b boost to the UK economy.

As for you 50 year predictions why are the worlds wealthiest setting up in London. Because Britain has been the safest place in the world for 1000 years. The EU had failed because of its dangerous politics, they know it’s a risk they won’t take... We in Britain will absolutely profit from your mistakes.

Deep down I think you know this.

I'm happy to debate. As I have mentioned before, I think the EU is far from perfect but given the options that seem to be on the table which are Chequers or no deal, I think remain is a much better option for the country.

I find it difficult to debate with stubborn brexiteers as they just attribute expert opinion to "project fear". I would say objectively that Mark Carney governor of the bank of England since 2013 would be a voice that should be listened when it comes to predicting the economy. Jacob Rees Mogg labels him as hysterical and dismisses his predictions, who would you rather believe a man who is vastly qualified or a man who has gambled heavily on emerging markets, a man who stands to profit heavily from Brexit regardless of damage to the British economy.
Ralf Speth the chief exec of Jaguar Land rover warns of how brexit will not only affect their previously planned £80bn investment but also force them into a contingency to move away from production in the UK. He explains in detail all the obstacles of operating post brexit and it is dismissed by those with no expertise in the automotive industry.
My own industry (insurance) has already sacrificed some of its control as Lloyds is now domiciled in Brussells for all EU business which is a massive market and I know many brokers are being cut out completely now on their European books of business.
Renegotiating trade deals and negotiating new deals is a long arduous process with much due diligence and massive legal costs. Simple deals between my company and foreign partners have to go through the scrutiny of the legal team with several re-draftings before all parties agree and it complies with regulations in both countries. If we lose all our EU trading agreements I can't see how we will not suffer significantly in the time it takes to negotiate, we are talking years here. We really needed brexit with inclusion to the single market if we were going to leave and we aren't going to get it.
The city is expecting big pain, everyone I know is having damage limitation talks from the top.
You are correct that the world wealthiest want to live and trade here but rather that taking control back we are losing control of our financial power.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

When I was unfortunate enough to still be working, when somebody used 'with respect' in a sentence it actually meant 'shove it up your arse'.

It still does.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'm happy to debate. As I have mentioned before, I think the EU is far from perfect but given the options that seem to be on the table which are Chequers or no deal, I think remain is a much better option for the country.

I find it difficult to debate with stubborn brexiteers as they just attribute expert opinion to "project fear". I would say objectively that Mark Carney governor of the bank of England since 2013 would be a voice that should be listened when it comes to predicting the economy. Jacob Rees Mogg labels him as hysterical and dismisses his predictions, who would you rather believe a man who is vastly qualified or a man who has gambled heavily on emerging markets, a man who stands to profit heavily from Brexit regardless of damage to the British economy.
Ralf Speth the chief exec of Jaguar Land rover warns of how brexit will not only affect their previously planned £80bn investment but also force them into a contingency to move away from production in the UK. He explains in detail all the obstacles of operating post brexit and it is dismissed by those with no expertise in the automotive industry.
My own industry (insurance) has already sacrificed some of its control as Lloyds is now domiciled in Brussells for all EU business which is a massive market and I know many brokers are being cut out completely now on their European books of business.
Renegotiating trade deals and negotiating new deals is a long arduous process with much due diligence and massive legal costs. Simple deals between my company and foreign partners have to go through the scrutiny of the legal team with several re-draftings before all parties agree and it complies with regulations in both countries. If we lose all our EU trading agreements I can't see how we will not suffer significantly in the time it takes to negotiate, we are talking years here. We really needed brexit with inclusion to the single market if we were going to leave and we aren't going to get it.
The city is expecting big pain, everyone I know is having damage limitation talks from the top.
You are correct that the world wealthiest want to live and trade here but rather that taking control back we are losing control of our financial power.

Checkers will eventually be watered down to a Norway syle deal after all the compromises-on both sides-have taken place. Remain sadly is not an option, if the democratic will of the people is to be respected.Brexit is a mess but at least it's a democratic mess.

 

[Ricky Otto]

Checkers will eventually be watered down to a Norway syle deal after all the compromises-on both sides-have taken place. Remain sadly is not an option, if the democratic will of the people is to be respected.Brexit is a mess but at least it's a democratic mess.

There are talks of a peoples vote from some quarters on whether to accept the final deal, I think democracy is fluid and a peoples vote on the final deal would be the democratic thing to do. Realistically though, May has said she wouldn't entertain it so it is very unlikely no matter how loud the calls for it get.

 

[MK Shrimper]

There are talks of a peoples vote from some quarters on whether to accept the final deal, I think democracy is fluid and a peoples vote on the final deal would be the democratic thing to do. Realistically though, May has said she wouldn't entertain it so it is very unlikely no matter how loud the calls for it get.

How many remainers would bother? Not sure I would. Its like voting for which leg you'd like to cut off first.

 

[Ricky Otto]

How many remainers would bother? Not sure I would. Its like voting for which leg you'd like to cut off first.

Well if it is truly the peoples vote that is being called for then rejecting both the deal and the no deal is an option, i.e withdrawing the Article 50 letter, which would be cost free, since the terms of our EU membership cannot be changed without our agreement as a member state.