Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

But would you agree that Jewish MP's having to be escorted to the party conference by police and now Jewish members of the party being banned from meetings looks rather bad?
Of course there isn't a problem - it's all made up by the right wing media.

Merseyside police confirmed that no MPs were specifically escorted to the conference. Police were at the conference as they would be for any conference as conferences are potential terrorist targets. The police took a while to issue a statement on that (probably so as not to be dragged into the workings of the gutter press) but a freedom of information request was made and then they confirmed no escorts were requested or provided.
Why Ms Berger didn't quash the media reports on that and instead chose to remain silent - I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Second point - Jewish members of the party were not banned from a recent meeting - you need to take Rigsby's posts with a pinch of salt. Known trouble makers were banned. As I said earlier if your are familiar with the people involved with the Gnasher twitter account you will not be surprised that they are not welcome at meetings.

So yes, the first point has been made up by the right wing media and the second point is a reasonable reaction to known trouble makers to keep meetings safe and worthwhile.

Yes it does look bad - that is why lies and misinterpretations are issued.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Can someone please explain to me what on earth one Jewish MP being escorted by Police at the recent Labour Party conference has to do with Brexit? Don't think I've ever seen a more blatant attempt to throw a dead dog on the table, in order to avoid discussing what is perhaps the most important political issue of our time.

And one wasn't, none were.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yes, I appreciate that is the least damaging arrangement on offer but what advantages does it offer over our present situation. From what I understand it means us continuing to pay into the EU but without any say. We'd escape the ECJ but replace it with the EFTA court. Wouldn't it also tie us to the EU without the possibility of making all those 'SUPER' () trade deals all over the world?

The status quo after the referendum result is,unfortunately, not really an option.Staying in a/the customs union would at least leave the UK as closely aligned to the EU as possible in the present circumstances.Don't think I've ever argued that this would be better than our current full membership of the EU.One objection to this is the question which you raise,to which the answer is in the affirmative.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And one wasn't, none were.

I wouldn't want to argue the point but I distinctly remember seeing TV pictures of a female Labour MP with a policeman walking in front of her,said to be for her protection,according to either BBC2 Daily Politics or C4 News.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I wouldn't want to argue the point but I distinctly remember seeing TV pictures of a female Labour MP with a policeman walking in front of her,said to be for her protection,according to either BBC2 Daily Politics or C4 News.

Merseyside police confirmed that no MPs were specifically escorted to the conference. Police were at the conference as they would be for any conference as conferences are potential terrorist targets. The police took a while to issue a statement on that (probably so as not to be dragged into the workings of the gutter press) but a freedom of information request was made and then they confirmed no escorts were requested or provided.
Why Ms Berger didn't quash the media reports on that and instead chose to remain silent - I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Merseyside police confirmed that no MPs were specifically escorted to the conference. Police were at the conference as they would be for any conference as conferences are potential terrorist targets. The police took a while to issue a statement on that (probably so as not to be dragged into the workings of the gutter press) but a freedom of information request was made and then they confirmed no escorts were requested or provided.
Why Ms Berger didn't quash the media reports on that and instead chose to remain silent - I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

The TV pictures I saw of were of her at conference.

I've also wondered why she chose not to make any comments about this to the media.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45882360

Expectations low as Mrs May heads to Brussels.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

The status quo after the referendum result is,unfortunately, not really an option.Staying in a/the customs union would at least leave the UK as closely aligned to the EU as possible in the present circumstances.Don't think I've ever argued that this would be better than our current full membership of the EU.One objection to this is the question which you raise,to which the answer is in the affirmative.

Unless I misheard, Corbyn claimed in the Commons that he would get a better deal. Yes sure, Norway is the 'softer brexit' option but as I've said we will then still be tied to the EU.......'pay without say'...... a terrible option and one that is not e totally accepted in the Labour Party (unless views have changed). https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ys-labour-divided-norway-style-deal-amendment You appear to be in the May school of thinking, i.e. we've had a referendum and whatever the consequences we're obliged to continue, without question, on that path. The only reason I clearly back a second 'peoples vote' is because we are SO far removed from what was promised in 2016 what I feel we need confirmation that any deal now sorted (if indeed there is one) has the approval of the British people. You appear to accept that a Norway style deal is not a good deal.....it's just the better than Canada or no-deal. That's not much of a recommendation!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Unless I misheard, Corbyn claimed in the Commons that he would get a better deal. Yes sure, Norway is the 'softer brexit' option but as I've said we will then still be tied to the EU.......'pay without say'...... a terrible option and one that is not e totally accepted in the Labour Party (unless views have changed). https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ys-labour-divided-norway-style-deal-amendment You appear to be in the May school of thinking, i.e. we've had a referendum and whatever the consequences we're obliged to continue, without question, on that path. The only reason I clearly back a second 'peoples vote' is because we are SO far removed from what was promised in 2016 what I feel we need confirmation that any deal now sorted (if indeed there is one) has the approval of the British people. You appear to accept that a Norway style deal is not a good deal.....it's just the better than Canada or no-deal. That's not much of a recommendation!

Quite honestly Yogi I'd sooner talk about the backstop agreement,which IIRC, was agreed jointly by the EU and the UK last December,which Mrs May's government is now so desperately trying to weasel out of.Unfortunately for her and the Tories ,there's no way the EU will let them get away with it.

Labour most likely won't be in office until after negotiations with the EU over Brexit have been concluded,so whatever its Brexit policy is ,will be unlikely to be tested before we exit the EU.

FWIW,when I was in Norway last year they seemed to be coping well with their semi-detached status in the EU.Mind you they do have boundless reserves of fish and oil, on tap.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The TV pictures I saw of were of her at conference.

I've also wondered why she chose not to make any comments about this to the media.

yes there are photos of her with a policeman walking next to her, it wasn't a police escort though - Merseyside police have confirmed that.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

yes there are photos of her with a policeman walking next to her, it wasn't a police escort though - Merseyside police have confirmed that.

Ok.Pleased to be corrected.That means the TV reports on (I believe) both BBC2 and C4 News were incredibly biased.I don't remember seeing a correction and I watch both,most days.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Quite honestly Yogi I'd sooner talk about the backstop agreement,which IIRC, was agreed jointly by the EU and the UK last December,which Mrs May's government is now so desperately trying to weasel out of.Unfortunately for her and the Tories ,there's no way the EU will let them get away with it.

Labour most likely won't be in office until after negotiations with the EU over Brexit have been concluded,so whatever its Brexit policy is ,will be unlikely to be tested before we exit the EU.

FWIW,when I was in Norway 2 years ago they seemed to be coping well with their semi-detached status in the EU.Mind you they do have boundless reserves of fish and oil, on tap.

I can agree with most of that. There are still BIG questions against a Norway style deal. It would seem that the difference between us is that you are determined on a Brexit with a deal which, is not good but the best we can get. I am not prepared to countenance Brexit at any price. If, as clearly we can't, get a Brexit anywhere near the one we were promised then I strongly believe voters should have a final say on the deal proposed.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I can agree with most of that. There are still BIG questions against a Norway style deal. It would seem that the difference between us is that you are determined on a Brexit with a deal which, is not good but the best we can get. I am not prepared to countenance Brexit at any price. If, as clearly we can't, get a Brexit anywhere near the one we were promised then I strongly believe voters should have a final say on the deal proposed.

I've never made any secret of the fact that I'm a reluctant leaver at best.But you're right to point out that I believe we need to leave the EU with some sort of deal on the table.The thought of no deal,or more exactly ,leaving on WTO terms doesn't bear countenancing,IMO.

The prospect of another referendum, even on just the Brexit terms this time around, would IMO,not only be profoundly undemocratic, but I also rather doubt if the result would be too much different from 2016. I suggested Norway was a semi-detached member of the EU before.The UK has always been that too.Not only are we not in the Euro or Schengen but we get a massive annual rebate (negotiated by Thatcher) and people still aren't happy with that.The EU has been the whipping boy of UK politics for the last 20 years or so at least,arguably even longer.It will be interesting to see who right-wingers (and many on the hard -left) think they'll be able to replace it with,when Brexit turns out to be the disaster, which many (including myself), predict.

 

[MK Shrimper]

How is another referendum undemocratic? There was a vote in 1975, the 2016 was the second referendum.

It's like Jimmy at the end of Quadrophenia. He voted to drive his scooter over the cliff. Then half way through he voted not to as he would, in all likelyhood, die and be unable to appear several decades later in EastEnders.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

How is another referendum undemocratic? There was a vote in 1975, the 2016 was the second referendum.

It's like Jimmy at the end of Quadrophenia. He voted to drive his scooter over the cliff. Then half way through he voted not to as he would, in all likelyhood, die and be unable to appear several decades later in EastEnders.

It’s a bit of a stretch to make that comparison MK the vote to join the Common Market was a very different debate, about a very different institution. A lot of water has passed under the bridge and over 40 years to boot! By that reckoning, we would get one vote on everything which would last for eternity never to be revisited! But having a referendum vote and then another 2 years later asking basically the same question clearly looks/smells/is different.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

How is another referendum undemocratic? There was a vote in 1975, the 2016 was the second referendum.

It's like Jimmy at the end of Quadrophenia. He voted to drive his scooter over the cliff. Then half way through he voted not to as he would, in all likelyhood, die and be unable to appear several decades later in EastEnders.

I remember the 1975 referendum well thanks.I voted in it.

I also remember Quadrohenia well.I used to know quite a few mods.I never knew one who drove himself off a cliff though. Great movie though,despite the ending.

In answer to your question refenda are profoundly undemocratic in themselves.That's why they're were so popular with dictators like Hitler etc.They are not a good way of solving complex issues. As you know the only reason Cameron agreed to hold a referendum in the first place was because, smug git that he was,he thought he'd win it. and unite the Tory party behind him in doing so.That worked well didn't it?

The 3016 referendum had a clear result.The reasons for the narrow leave majority were various and complex.But it would be profoundly undemocratic not to respect that majority by holding yet another referendum now..That why both the Tories and Labour were in favour of leave in their 2017 election manifestos.That's why we're in the mess we're in now,I'm afraid having another referendum won't undo the current mess ,it would just give the message to the electorate that they made the wrong decision in 2016.Which they did.
They should never have been asked to decide in the first place, unless the government of the day was prepared to accept their verdict. Since the UK is a representative democracy, I'd suggest it's better to to let the UK's elected representatives themselves try and get us out of the mess which has been created.Mainly by the Tory government but also by the British people themselves.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It’s a bit of a stretch to make that comparison MK the vote to join the Common Market was a very different debate, about a very different institution. A lot of water has passed under the bridge and over 40 years to boot! By that reckoning, we would get one vote on everything which would last for eternity never to be revisited! But having a referendum vote and then another 2 years later asking basically the same question clearly looks/smells/is different.

Quite a few Tory MP's would have liked a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Effectively that's what the 2016 referendum was. All institutions evolve.

It is to be hoped that the majority of the British public ,having made their choice in 2016 will be happy with the outcome.

I've predicted before now that the 2016 referendum result will be reversed at some point in the future.(As indeed the 1975 vote was).Unfortunately,I don't expect to be alive to see it.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Quite a few Tory MP's would have liked a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Effectively that's what the 2016 referendum was. All institutions evolve.

It is to be hoped that the majority of the British public ,having made their choice in 2016 will be happy with the outcome.

I've predicted before now that the 2016 refendum result will be reversed at some point in the futute.As indeed the 1975 vote was.Unfortunately,I don't expect to be alive to see it.

Hopefully you'll see out the year.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quite a few Tory MP's would have liked a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Effectively that's what the 2016 referendum was. All institutions evolve.

It is to be hoped that the majority of the British public ,having made their choice in 2016 will be happy with the outcome.

I've predicted before now that the 2016 refendum result will be reversed at some point in the futute.As indeed the 1975 vote was.Unfortunately,I don't expect to be alive to see it.

I can agree with all of that

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Hopefully you'll see out the year.

I'm not planning to pop my clogs any time soon.But at my age you never quite know.Just heard from my wife about a mutual friend (and an ex-colleague of hers), who's been diagnosed with cancer. Jeanette (although a fair few years older than me) is 74 and has been a smoker all her life. Her British partner Charles (also a smoker) but younger than me is a great friend.Ironically,I used to see them at Blues /Jazz concerts in the Barna area (mostly Blues) a long time before I knew who they were.For the last 10 years or so they've been living in Britanny where J. comes from.And they lived in Malaga for a a good few years before that.