Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

I can understand that too to an extent. You only have to mention the name Blair to realise the toxicity the man brought to politics and the Labour party in general while in office.

Say what you will about Labours last term in office but what they did and what they did well, up to a point, is appeal to the middle ground. Something that certainly can't be said of this current batch of Labour opposition politicians.

In the last general election in 2017, Labour appealed to 40% of the electorate.That represented the biggest rise in their electoral support since the general election of 1945.Fact.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think the meaningful vote (at least the first one) is as sure to be defeated as Labour's consequent motion of no confidence. Corbyn can point out what he wants, I don't think I observed any staggering shift to the left in power in 2017. That was following how many years of Tory austerity? and als juggling with a position on Europe that incredibly allowed him to appeal to both remainers and leavers at the same time.............doubt he'll be allowed to get away with that again!

1.Please see post 4,381 for my answer to this point.Labour very nearly won the 2017 election and will most certainly win the one,whenever it's called.

2.That was after 7 years of Tory austerity cuts.

3.Perhaps you would also care to answer Blues Exile's question and specify what exacly was "the staggering shift to the left" in Labour's 2017 manifesto? Many of us on the left didn't think the manifesto was radical enough.perhaps because of the short time frame invoved in May's "snap election.".I doubt if that same mistake will be made next time around.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

1.Please see post 4,381 for my answer to this point.Labour very nearly won the 2017 election and will most certainly win the one,whenever it's called.

2.That was after 7 years of Tory austerity cuts.

3.Pehaps you would also care to answer Blues Exile's question and specify what exactly was "the staggering shift to the left" in Labour's 2017 manifesto? Many of us on the left didn't think the manifesto was radical enough.perhaps because of the short time frame invoved in May's "snap election.".I doubt if that same mistake will be made next time around.

No Guv, weren't me that said it! I made allusion to 'any great shift to the left in power in 2017.' Didn't talk about the manifesto at all. Shamefully, I have to admit that wasn't on my reading list in 2017! I think you'll find Blues Exile was asking the question to Bielzibubz. As you mention it, maybe Labour performed less badly than predicted in 2017 because their manifesto wasn't radical enough?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No Guv, weren't me that said it! I made allusion to 'any great shift to the left in power in 2017.' Didn't talk about the manifesto at all. Shamefully, I have to admit that wasn't on my reading list in 2017! I think you'll find Blues Exile was asking the question to Bielzibubz. As you mention it, maybe Labour performed less badly than predicted in 2017 because their manifesto wasn't radical enough?

Yes I was aware that BE was asking Bielzibubz the question but I thought you might want to answer it too since you talked about "a shift to the left" in 2017.

We'll have to wait and see what Labour's next GE manifesto contains (and the result of the election ) before your question can be answered.BTW,Labour's 2017 manifesto "For the Many not the Few" was well worth reading, much better than the Tories effort.Have to admit I didn't get around to reading the Lib/Dem's manifesto.But then I read quite a lot of fiction,anyway.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Sadly, Blair was responsible for shifting the so called Middle Ground sharply to the right by slavishly kowtowing to the Thatcherite agenda. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which of the policies outlined in the last Labour election manifesto you regard as far left.

It doesn’t matter, the general public regard Corbyn and his inner circle as hard left and most people don’t vote for hard left politics.
Blair appealed to the middle ground, it’s why he won three elections. It’s not the three quid membership you need to convince it’s the middle ground and Corbyn doesn’t occupy it.

 

[blues exile]

It doesn’t matter, the general public regard Corbyn and his inner circle as hard left and most people don’t vote for hard left politics.
Blair appealed to the middle ground, it’s why he won three elections. It’s not the three quid membership you need to convince it’s the middle ground and Corbyn doesn’t occupy it.

a sweeping statement not supported by the results of the last GE. I give the public a little bit more credit than you do for not being so gullible these days about the vicious lies peddled by the Mail and The Sun and sadly the BBC. The middle ground is a myth created by the right wing media which really means the narrow prism of views to the right of centre but not quite extending to Farage and his extremists.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Yes I was aware that BE was asking Bielzibubz the question but I thought you might want to answer it too since you talked about "a shift to the left" in 2017.

We'll have to wait and see what Labour's next GE manifesto contains (and the result of the election ) before your question can be answered.BTW,Labour's 2017 manifesto "For the Many not the Few" was well worth reading, much better than the Tories effort.Have to admit I didn't get around to reading the Lib/Dem's manifesto.But then I read quite a lot of fiction,anyway.

But I DIDN'T!!!! There you go, typical of you lefties............always quoting things out of context! Touché, for the bit at the end. I'll remind you I've still got my posters downstairs 'Jo Grimmond leads Liberals' (all six of them at that time) and 'Jeremy Thorpe Leads the Great Crusade' (we could do with another one of those!)

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

a sweeping statement not supported by the results of the last GE. I give the public a little bit more credit than you do for not being so gullible these days about the vicious lies peddled by the Mail and The Sun and sadly the BBC. The middle ground is a myth created by the right wing media which really means the narrow prism of views to the right of centre but not quite extending to Farage and his extremists.

The Tories will be delighted you consider them in the middle ground of British politics........you've obviously been taken in by Theresa May's 'one nation' sound bites.........shame on you!

 

[Bielzibubz]

Blues Exile can ask as many questions as he likes. I can't see his posts so he won't get a reply.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

It doesn’t matter, the general public regard Corbyn and his inner circle as hard left and most people don’t vote for hard left politics.
Blair appealed to the middle ground, it’s why he won three elections. It’s not the three quid membership you need to convince it’s the middle ground and Corbyn doesn’t occupy it.

40% of the voting public voted for the hard left at the last election if that is what Labour are.

The £3 membership was Miliband's idea, I don't know if you see him as hard left too? That offer was for a limited period so the current membership of over half a million are paying the standard rate. Essentially membership has doubled and is about 5 times that of the Tories.

 

[blues exile]

The Tories will be delighted you consider them in the middle ground of British politics........you've obviously been taken in by Theresa May's 'one nation' sound bites.........shame on you!

I suggest you read my post more thoroughly. The so called middle ground is well to the right of centre. The Tories and New Labour saw to that. Not to mention the LibDems, the enablers of Tory austerity.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

40% of the voting public voted for the hard left at the last election if that is what Labour are.

The £3 membership was Miliband's idea, I don't know if you see him as hard left too? That offer was for a limited period so the current membership of over half a million are paying the standard rate. Essentially membership has doubled and is about 5 times that of the Tories.

So am I (though I should be paying the OAP rate ,which for some reason is not availalbe for members abroad). Makes my membership of Momentum at 11 quid look a bargain.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

But I DIDN'T!!!! There you go, typical of you lefties............always quoting things out of context! Touché, for the bit at the end. I'll remind you I've still got my posters downstairs 'Jo Grimmond leads Liberals' (all six of them at that time) and 'Jeremy Thorpe Leads the Great Crusade' (we could do with another one of those!)

Sorry got my quotes mixed up.Which reminds me you swerved when I asked you how you would feel about another referendum vote not going for remain. Well?

Btw,I always liked Jo Grimmond.Not Thorpe though.Though I loved his quote about Macmillan's Night of the Long Knives.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Blues Exile can ask as many questions as he likes. I can't see his posts so he won't get a reply.

Ha, pity! Can you still see mine?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I suggest you read my post more thoroughly. The so called middle ground is well to the right of centre. The Tories and New Labour saw to that. Not to mention the LibDems, the enablers of Tory austerity.

The greatest fear I have is that the present Labour leadership risks landing the UK with another five years of disasterously incompetent, nasty Tory rule. For a number of reasons the Labour Party feared better than was expected in 2017.
1) They appeared more exciting, compared to the alternatives, to a young forward looking
group of voters, probably hitherto unattached.
2) They faced a totally catastrophic campaign by May
3) Credit where credit is due..........Corbyn somehow managed to get both remain and leave
voters to believe he was with them.
The next General Election - if it is this year - Corbyn's adamant approach to leaving the EU will make it difficult to hang onto those young voters. I can't believe the Tory campaign will be that bad again and I can't imagine Corbyn will get such a soft ride, sitting on the EU fence again. Anyway you can talk about the percentage of vote you got in 2017 but as you know, in the British electoral system, it's not so much how many votes you get but where you get them.
Are the Labour Party's policies very left-wing or more moderate as you claim................does it really matter? The problem is that it's not just about policies is it. There is something that just doesn't smell right with the Labour leadership and momentum organisation..............the hints of bullying, anti-semitism etc. Why would I feel happier with the likes of Michael Foot or Tony Benn in charge rather than Corbyn? There is something that doesn't quite ring right..........is there a parallel between Corbyn and May?....................May, a remainer, who is pushing a leave agenda.
Blair achieved a landslide on the back of a tired and spent Tory Party............he offered something new, which gained widespread support (from centre, left and right). What we were to find out was that Blair was probably the best leader the Tory Party never had. He probably maintained his position with Tory votes. Who needed a Tory Party when you had a Labour leader carrying out many Tory policies?
Concerning your last quip. I would have felt much more at home if the Lib Dems had managed a coalition with Gordon Brown but it wasn't to be. Difficult though it was for me to swallow, I felt the decision, at that time, to go into coalition with the Tories, was the right one for the country. The Lib Dems did help hold off some of the worse excesses of Tory ideology but were found to be too naive and inexperienced to deal with the situation.............and hell, in the end, didn't they pay a price for that innocence.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Sorry got my quotes mixed up.Which reminds me you swerved when I asked you how you would feel about another referendum vote not going for remain. Well?

Btw,I always liked Jo Grimmond.Not Thorpe though.Though I loved his quote about Macmillan's Night of the Long Knives.

Sorry, I don't remember you asking me about another referendum. I have already indicated in other posts, that if the British public voted for a hard Brexit (and I think that would be the true choice between leave and remain) I would not like it but would totally accept it. I would say good luck to the UK and go and get my life back. It would give the leave vote a legitimacy, I feel it doesn't at the moment possess

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Incidently, my Liberal connections were 30 years ago.........since that time I've had no party allegiance. Since living in France, like you, I can't vote for anyone anyway! Bed time for Bonzo!

 

[Bielzibubz]

Ha, pity! Can you still see mine?

No

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The greatest fear I have is that the present Labour leadership risks landing the UK with another five years of disasterously incompetent, nasty Tory rule. For a number of reasons the Labour Party feared better than was expected in 2017.
1) They appeared more exciting, compared to the alternatives, to a young forward looking
group of voters, probably hitherto unattached.
2) They faced a totally catastrophic campaign by May
3) Credit where credit is due..........Corbyn somehow managed to get both remain and leave
voters to believe he was with them.
The next General Election - if it is this year - Corbyn's adamant approach to leaving the EU will make it difficult to hang onto those young voters. I can't believe the Tory campaign will be that bad again and I can't imagine Corbyn will get such a soft ride, sitting on the EU fence again. Anyway you can talk about the percentage of vote you got in 2017 but as you know, in the British electoral system, it's not so much how many votes you get but where you get them.
Are the Labour Party's policies very left-wing or more moderate as you claim................does it really matter? The problem is that it's not just about policies is it. There is something that just doesn't smell right with the Labour leadership and momentum organisation..............the hints of bullying, anti-semitism etc. Why would I feel happier with the likes of Michael Foot or Tony Benn in charge rather than Corbyn? There is something that doesn't quite ring right..........is there a parallel between Corbyn and May?....................May, a remainer, who is pushing a leave agenda.
Blair achieved a landslide on the back of a tired and spent Tory Party............he offered something new, which gained widespread support (from centre, left and right). What we were to find out was that Blair was probably the best leader the Tory Party never had. He probably maintained his position with Tory votes. Who needed a Tory Party when you had a Labour leader carrying out many Tory policies?
Concerning your last quip. I would have felt much more at home if the Lib Dems had managed a coalition with Gordon Brown but it wasn't to be. Difficult though it was for me to swallow, I felt the decision, at that time, to go into coalition with the Tories, was the right one for the country. The Lib Dems did help hold off some of the worse excesses of Tory ideology but were found to be too naive and inexperienced to deal with the situation.............and hell, in the end, didn't they pay a price for that innocence.

I will respectfully suggest that pretty much everything you wrote in that post is incorrect.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I will respectfully suggest that pretty much everything you wrote in that post is incorrect.

You didn't think May's 2017 Election campaign was a catastrophy?