Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Ferrygate.
Today's chapter is that Eurotunnel have written to Chris Grayling complaining of him breaking anti-competition laws generally and the agreement with Eurotunnel specifically.

Banging on about one thing I know, but this one thing has a new element every day that perfectly encapsulates the folly of arguing among yourselves for two years then expecting to be able to pull everything together at the last minute.

This is the perfect example of why the notion expressed by members of the Question Time audience of 'just leave' doesn't actually work. You have to plan extensively to 'just leave' and clearly that plannning has not been done.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

What part of 'you can't remain in the customs union and leave the EU as well' don't you understand, it's impossible? The EU have said from day one, and it's pretty much universally accepted, you can't have both.

What part of "remain in a/customs union is the only way to leave the EU with a deal" don't you understand?

The masochistic idea that we can leave the EU without a dea,l on WTO terms, and somehow be better off than we were as full members is a fiction that you and your fellow Brexiteers will not be able to maintain much longer.Welcome to the real world.You can check out of the EU but never leave,

 

[MK Shrimper]

I see that despite Brexiteers banging on about how Germans will still want our cars, Jaguar/Landrover are making 4500 people redundant, Honda and Ford are about to announce major job losses as well. Ok, it may not entirely be all down to Brexit the the uncertainty of what deal (if any) we will (or not) leave with, but it certainly plays a part. Sad to say this will be the tip of the iceberg, especially if May is insane enough to leave without a kamikaze no deal.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

[QUOTE="Tangled up in Blue, post: 2105863, member: 755The poll results you link are clearly nonsensical.

We'll see what position Labour adopts when/if an early general election happens.You're right though that I believe labour could negotiate a better deal than the Tories on Brexit, based on membership a of a/the Customs Union.

If there were to be another referendum (which I doubt) ,It's far from axiomatic that remain would win (my preferred outcome).[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have expected you to have read it any differently! Yet surely there is a problem here. Granted, for the moment, Labour have managed to attract a number of new (and predominately young?) voters, who (for the moment) see the party as having something new, exciting and different to offer from the stale choice on show. Yet, in doing this the party has moved discernably to the left. Whilst Another Surrey Shrimper will claim that their policies remain the epitomy of reasonableness and moderation, perception is a very important factor here, whether or not Labour extremism is a myth promoted by the right-wing media, I have a number of Labour voting friends (by no means a representative sample!) who will not vote for the party with Corbyn as its leader. I suppose you could say good riddance to those pinkos! Yet these 'middle-ground' voters have been essential for securing a majority in modern day british politics. In the present volatile political climate maybe just maybe it could be done without them..............I have my doubts.............but at the least it makes the task FAR more difficult.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

[QUOTE="Tangled up in Blue, post: 2105863, member: 755The poll results you link are clearly nonsensical.

We'll see what position Labour adopts when/if an early general election happens.You're right though that I believe labour could negotiate a better deal than the Tories on Brexit, based on membership a of a/the Customs Union.

If there were to be another referendum (which I doubt) ,It's far from axiomatic that remain would win (my preferred outcome).

I wouldn't have expected you to have read it any differently! Yet surely there is a problem here. Granted, for the moment, Labour have managed to attract a number of new (and predominately young?) voters, who (for the moment) see the party as having something new, exciting and different to offer from the stale choice on show. Yet, in doing this the party has moved discernably to the left. Whilst Another Surrey Shrimper will claim that their policies remain the epitomy of reasonableness and moderation, perception is a very important factor here, whether or not Labour extremism is a myth promoted by the right-wing media, I have a number of Labour voting friends (by no means a representative sample!) who will not vote for the party with Corbyn as its leader. I suppose you could say good riddance to those pinkos! Yet these 'middle-ground' voters have been essential for securing a majority in modern day british politics. In the present volatile political climate maybe just maybe it could be done without them..............I have my doubts.............but at the least it makes the task FAR more difficult.[/QUOTE]

I would (reluctantly) agree that Labour might have a problem keeping some of their "new (and predominantly) young voters" on board without giving into the demands of many activists for another referendum in the near future.However let me point out again that Labour are HMO and thus not in charge of events.Nor are HMG by the way.

Labour's call for an early general election if the "meaningful vote" is defeated is the right one for now. If a motion of no confidence in the government by Labour is defeated then inevitably Labour will come under pressure to back a campaign for another refendum in the near future.I hope it will also pepper May's lacklustre government with no-confidence motions at every opportunity.

As to your point about modern day British politics.As Corbyn pointed out in 2017, the middle ground in British politics has shifted to the left.The Blair years are over. Ten years of Tory austerity and the 2016 Brexit referendum result have changed the nature of British politics.Perhaps forever.

 

[pottster]

I see that despite Brexiteers banging on about how Germans will still want our cars, Jaguar/Landrover are making 4500 people redundant, Honda and Ford are about to announce major job losses as well. Ok, it may not entirely be all down to Brexit the the uncertainty of what deal (if any) we will (or not) leave with, but it certainly plays a part. Sad to say this will be the tip of the iceberg, especially if May is insane enough to leave without a kamikaze no deal.

Its not down to brexit it was the down turn in china and people aren't buying diesel cars. There is some uncertainty about brexit but it hasn't stopped them building a new factory in slovakia

 

[MK Shrimper]

Its not down to brexit it was the down turn in china and people aren't buying diesel cars. There is some uncertainty about brexit but it hasn't stopped them building a new factory in slovakia

Of course not, Slovakia is in the EU.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I see that despite Brexiteers banging on about how Germans will still want our cars, Jaguar/Landrover are making 4500 people redundant, Honda and Ford are about to announce major job losses as well. Ok, it may not entirely be all down to Brexit the the uncertainty of what deal (if any) we will (or not) leave with, but it certainly plays a part. Sad to say this will be the tip of the iceberg, especially if May is insane enough to leave without a kamikaze no deal.

I believe that brexiteers have mainly been stressing that the Germans will want to SELL us their cars, while still wanting/needing to import vital component parts for those same cars. Slightly different take on it but the point is a serious financial lobbying set of incentives from industry both sides of the channel.

JLR are 5-10 years behind where they need to be in the race to non oil burning engines & would likely be in trouble without the further problem of EU divorce.

TM is gambling that the UK Guv also think as you do about no deal.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Its not down to brexit it was the down turn in china and people aren't buying diesel cars. There is some uncertainty about brexit but it hasn't stopped them building a new factory in slovakia

Both JLR and Ford announced yesterday that the uncertainty over Brexit was a factor in their redundancy plans in the UK.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

No I don't. As a simple Yes/No choice there was little to get wrong, the referendum option itself wasn't flawed at all. What has been flawed ever since is this Governments inability or unwillingness to stand up to the EU, to grow a pair and do what, in my naivety, I thought they would do and put this country first and foremost in any subsequent negotiations. Having a Remainer in charge of those negotiations hasn't helped and I suppose if I'm being honest this shambles has been on the cards since she won the GE.

And I don't think I'm being condescending when I say perhaps the general populace is easily duped by those in a position of power and not capable of seeing through the spin, lies and bullcrap. They are at every single GE after all. We believe the promises put in manifestos prior to a GE and then just accept things without a whimper when those promises turn out to be just hollow gestures to win the popular vote.

And just for the record I have never favoured a hard Brexit, not ever, but I now recognise that with the choices being what they are, TM botched half arsed deal and leave in name only or JC and his leave but stay in the customs union complete non starter I feel now there is no other way but for that hard Brexit.

A second vote or referendum, whatever you want to call it, would just end up being 6 months of more politicians lies, spin, media propaganda and misinformation and hypothetically speaking lets just say we did have another referendum in six months time after all the options and 'supposed' outcomes of each have been rammed down the throat of the population and the vote comes back 52% to stay and 48% to leave. Why then shouldn't those leavers now have another vote? After all, that 52% only voted stay because of a hatful of lies and spin put out by a remain camp that managed to spin it to the public only slightly better than the leave camp.

Surely this was certainly the case in the 2016 referendum............weren't we promised by 'leave' that we could negotiate to leave the EU and maintain the same benefits we had as a member?
This is where I find your position a little contradictory. There were surely only two outcomes possible in negotiations, no matter how strong and tough a position we adopted. Either leave brutally or you leave softly, thus obliging you to still be tied to EU regulations. If you think there was a realistic third way, I'd be interested to hear it. True, May's negotiating hand was hampered by the the divisions in her own party but in the end I don't think they were necessarily 'botched.' With the red lines she had drawn (surely ones you would have supported to obtain the desired freedom from the EU and its institutions) the outcome was bound to be limited. Without the internal party wrangling, I do feel this same situation could have been reached a year ago, which may not have changed things greatly but at least we wouldn't find ourselves being pushed towards the precipice with little time for reflection or debate.
You didn't address my point of questioning whether your new found positioning of hard Brexit had majority support in the country? This certainly wasn't the predicted outcome presented to the public in 2016. Maybe the country, like you , has swung behind that position. Parliament certainly hasn't and there seems to me only one way, no matter how imperfect it has been shown to be, to find out whether the country is of similar mind to yourself.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Surely this was certainly the case in the 2016 referendum............weren't we promised by 'leave' that we could negotiate to leave the EU and maintain the same benefits we had as a member?
This is where I find your position a little contradictory. There were surely only two outcomes possible in negotiations, no matter how strong and tough a position we adopted. Either leave brutally or you leave softly, thus obliging you to still be tied to EU regulations. If you think there was a realistic third way, I'd be interested to hear it. True, May's negotiating hand was hampered by the the divisions in her own party but in the end I don't think they were necessarily 'botched.' With the red lines she had drawn (surely ones you would have supported to obtain the desired freedom from the EU and its institutions) the outcome was bound to be limited. Without the internal party wrangling, I do feel this same situation could have been reached a year ago, which may not have changed things greatly but at least we wouldn't find ourselves being pushed towards the precipice with little time for reflection or debate.
You didn't address my point of questioning whether your new found positioning of hard Brexit had majority support in the country? This certainly wasn't the predicted outcome presented to the public in 2016. Maybe the country, like you , has swung behind that position. Parliament certainly hasn't and there seems to me only one way, no matter how imperfect it has been shown to be, to find out whether the country is of similar mind to yourself.

I really cannot say whether there is a majority of the populace that has now got the same thinking as me. Certainly I do know of some that had previously, although tentatively, voted remain who now just want out as quickly as possible. Their stance has certainly changed and mine has hardened. Agreed, Parliament certainly hasn't but I think that's more to do with them either having vested interests or toeing the party line and playing the long term game with regard to their own careers. Understandably some would say.

For people like myself this is now very worrying. What worries me now is that if we do, for whatever reason, end up having a GE and we're stuck with the choices we have. A lib/Dem party openly in favour of overturning the referendum result and going back to the status que. A Tory party that couldn't organise a children's Birthday party full of members with nothing but greed, hubris and ego to put before the electorate and a Labour party that's swung so far to the left with JC and his cohorts at the helm it's become impossible for me to even think about putting a tick in that box. That really is no choice at all.

What this country is crying out for is a centrist Labour party that recognises and accepts the importance of big business/consumerism/capitalism and how it influences and dictates the course of a countries economy whilst at the same time putting the people, their welfare, their wishes and their concerns first and foremost. Societal utopia maybe but at the moment we have nothing that remotely resembles that in any way shape or form and I really don't know which way I'd go, God forbid we do end up with another GE.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

[QUOTE="Tangled up in Blue, post: 2105863, member: 755The poll results you link are clearly nonsensical.

We'll see what position Labour adopts when/if an early general election happens.You're right though that I believe labour could negotiate a better deal than the Tories on Brexit, based on membership a of a/the Customs Union.

If there were to be another referendum (which I doubt) ,It's far from axiomatic that remain would win (my preferred outcome).

I wouldn't have expected you to have read it any differently! Yet surely there is a problem here. Granted, for the moment, Labour have managed to attract a number of new (and predominately young?) voters, who (for the moment) see the party as having something new, exciting and different to offer from the stale choice on show. Yet, in doing this the party has moved discernably to the left. Whilst Another Surrey Shrimper will claim that their policies remain the epitomy of reasonableness and moderation, perception is a very important factor here, whether or not Labour extremism is a myth promoted by the right-wing media, I have a number of Labour voting friends (by no means a representative sample!) who will not vote for the party with Corbyn as its leader. I suppose you could say good riddance to those pinkos! Yet these 'middle-ground' voters have been essential for securing a majority in modern day british politics. In the present volatile political climate maybe just maybe it could be done without them..............I have my doubts.............but at the least it makes the task FAR more difficult.[/QUOTE]
Perception. I think it's fair to say that the UK media on the whole is right leaning and won't give anything to Labour. The last Labour leader to get elected is the godfather to one of Rupert Murdoch’s children. That is the game you have to play to get a fair hearing.

 

[dcblue]

why would a southend fan choose to sign up to a southend utd forum and then not post about the team/club?

just wondering, because it's been happening a bit

From the number of members on this forum what is the percentage that actually regularly post on the football forum. I would suggest far less than 50% so maybe, just maybe, it is the regular posters who are the odd ones. I don't mean that nastily.
The forum is the place to get information.

 

[MK Shrimper]

From the number of members on this forum what is the percentage that actually regularly post on the football forum. I would suggest far less than 50% so maybe, just maybe, it is the regular posters who are the odd ones. I don't mean that nastily.
The forum is the place to get information.

There are very few that ONLY post in the Brexit topics. In fact I think it's only you. Why is that?

 

[dcblue]

Its not down to brexit it was the down turn in china and people aren't buying diesel cars. There is some uncertainty about brexit but it hasn't stopped them building a new factory in slovakia

Yes and with a grant from the EU. I wonder where that money came from?

 

[dcblue]

There are very few that ONLY post in the Brexit topics. In fact I think it's only you. Why is that?

Maybe it's because it is a very important topic which I feel very strongly about.
However brexit has become much more than just leaving the EU. It is now also about democracy, parliamentary deception and corruption, free speech and so called far right to name a few.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I really cannot say whether there is a majority of the populace that has now got the same thinking as me. Certainly I do know of some that had previously, although tentatively, voted remain who now just want out as quickly as possible. Their stance has certainly changed and mine has hardened. Agreed, Parliament certainly hasn't but I think that's more to do with them either having vested interests or toeing the party line and playing the long term game with regard to their own careers. Understandably some would say.

For people like myself this is now very worrying. What worries me now is that if we do, for whatever reason, end up having a GE and we're stuck with the choices we have. A lib/Dem party openly in favour of overturning the referendum result and going back to the status que. A Tory party that couldn't organise a children's Birthday party full of members with nothing but greed, hubris and ego to put before the electorate and a Labour party that's swung so far to the left with JC and his cohorts at the helm it's become impossible for me to even think about putting a tick in that box. That really is no choice at all.

What this country is crying out for is a centrist Labour party that recognises and accepts the importance of big business/consumerism/capitalism and how it influences and dictates the course of a countries economy whilst at the same time putting the people, their welfare, their wishes and their concerns first and foremost. Societal utopia maybe but at the moment we have nothing that remotely resembles that in any way shape or form and I really don't know which way I'd go, God forbid we do end up with another GE.

Very sadly, there doesn't appear to be an appetite for the centre at the moment and that's not just a phenomena in the UK. How many times has a re-alignment of Labour moderates and Lib Dems been proposed? The history of the SDP is maybe too recent to have been rubbed from the memory of Labour members considering this avenue and of course the UK voting system does not easily facilitate new groupings. In another post I have explained to Barna and Another Surrey Shrimper how difficult I think it will be for Labour to take power under Corbyn (even allowing for the volatile political climate), when they are no longer appealing to the middle ground. I fear it is a case of principles before power although I do understand their desire to distance themselves from the recent history of 'New Labour.'

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I wouldn't have expected you to have read it any differently! Yet surely there is a problem here. Granted, for the moment, Labour have managed to attract a number of new (and predominately young?) voters, who (for the moment) see the party as having something new, exciting and different to offer from the stale choice on show. Yet, in doing this the party has moved discernably to the left. Whilst Another Surrey Shrimper will claim that their policies remain the epitomy of reasonableness and moderation, perception is a very important factor here, whether or not Labour extremism is a myth promoted by the right-wing media, I have a number of Labour voting friends (by no means a representative sample!) who will not vote for the party with Corbyn as its leader. I suppose you could say good riddance to those pinkos! Yet these 'middle-ground' voters have been essential for securing a majority in modern day british politics. In the present volatile political climate maybe just maybe it could be done without them..............I have my doubts.............but at the least it makes the task FAR more difficult.

I would (reluctantly) agree that Labour might have a problem keeping some of their "new (and predominantly) young voters" on board without giving into the demands of many activists for another referendum in the near future.However let me point out again that Labour are HMO and thus not in charge of events.Nor are HMG by the way.

Labour's call for an early general election if the "meaningful vote" is defeated is the right one for now. If a motion of no confidence in the government by Labour is defeated then inevitably Labour will come under pressure to back a campaign for another refendum in the near future.I hope it will also pepper May's lacklustre government with no-confidence motions at every opportunity.

As to your point about modern day British politics.As Corbyn pointed out in 2017, the middle ground in British politics has shifted to the left.The Blair years are over. Ten years of Tory austerity and the 2016 Brexit referendum result have changed the nature of British politics.Perhaps forever.[/QUOTE]

I think the meaningful vote (at least the first one) is as sure to be defeated as Labour's consequent motion of no confidence. Corbyn can point out what he wants, I don't think I observed any staggering shift to the left in power in 2017. That was following how many years of Tory austerity? and als juggling with a position on Europe that incredibly allowed him to appeal to both remainers and leavers at the same time.............doubt he'll be allowed to get away with that again!

 

[Bielzibubz]

I can understand that too to an extent. You only have to mention the name Blair to realise the toxicity the man brought to politics and the Labour party in general while in office.

Say what you will about Labours last term in office but what they did and what they did well, up to a point, is appeal to the middle ground. Something that certainly can't be said of this current batch of Labour opposition politicians.

 

[blues exile]

I can understand that too to an extent. You only have to mention the name Blair to realise the toxicity the man brought to politics and the Labour party in general while in office.

Say what you will about Labours last term in office but what they did and what they did well, up to a point, is appeal to the middle ground. Something that certainly can't be said of this current batch of Labour opposition politicians.

Sadly, Blair was responsible for shifting the so called Middle Ground sharply to the right by slavishly kowtowing to the Thatcherite agenda. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which of the policies outlined in the last Labour election manifesto you regard as far left.