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Brexit negotiations thread

It's been quite obvious for some time that this incompetent Tory government will not be able to get their Brexit plan through the Commons next Tuesday or even the week afterwards).It also seems unlikely (as the Brexiteers hope) that the Commons will allow a no-deal Brexit to take place at the end of March.Remaining in the EU would also seem to be unlikely.In these circumstances, it would be interesting to hear other proposals (some of which I hope MP's will be making clear from next week).Personally,I've long favoured a Norway style Brexit (as advocated by Owen Jones in today's Guardian). https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/norway-plus-labour-brexit

The main disadvantage of this (for fervent Brexiteers) it that it won't deliver on ending free movement.But then, IMO, nothing can or will.Is it really a problem to have so many baristas from France,Spain,Italy etc in London and the South-East come to practice their English for a few years before going home? O course,the high fliers from EU countries will always be able to get jobs in the City and elsewhere, even if free movement does come to an end.

It may be, as Mr Jones suggests, the best plan for Labour but is it really the best plan for the UK? it would mean Britain continuing to abide by the four EU freedoms, including freedom of movement, as well as having no decision-making power in Brussels. In brief we'd still be tied to the EU in a worse situation than we are at the moment. It would leave both remain and leave voters DEEPLY disatisfied. I'm aware that I have no wonder solution to the problem but there again I didn't help get us into this bloody mess in the first place.
 
It's been quite obvious for some time that this incompetent Tory government will not be able to get their Brexit plan through the Commons next Tuesday or even the week afterwards).It also seems unlikely (as the Brexiteers hope) that the Commons will allow a no-deal Brexit to take place at the end of March.Remaining in the EU would also seem to be unlikely.In these circumstances, it would be interesting to hear other proposals (some of which I hope MP's will be making clear from next week).Personally,I've long favoured a Norway style Brexit (as advocated by Owen Jones in today's Guardian). https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/norway-plus-labour-brexit

The main disadvantage of this (for fervent Brexiteers) it that it won't deliver on ending free movement.But then, IMO, nothing can or will.Is it really a problem to have so many baristas from France,Spain,Italy etc in London and the South-East come to practice their English for a few years before going home? O course,the high fliers from EU countries will always be able to get jobs in the City and elsewhere, even if free movement does come to an end.

No way is the TM deal going through as it is.
That is good IMO.
What isn't good is that in PQT, again, the opposition were asked for their input and suggestions on what would make an acceptable deal BUT nothing from that side of the House was forthcoming.
Surely to God in such times of crisis and uncertainty - almost a time of National Emergency - the mandarins of Westminster ought to forget their "them and us" and try offering solutions?
 
That's what's been bugging me. As much as I dislike the deal TM has done I cant see anything of substance that's been put forward as a workable alternative.

What makes JC and the Labour party think they could go to Brussels and convince them to give more than they have supposedly already given to TM in her 'deal'?
 
It may be, as Mr Jones suggests, the best plan for Labour but is it really the best plan for the UK? it would mean Britain continuing to abide by the four EU freedoms, including freedom of movement, as well as having no decision-making power in Brussels. In brief we'd still be tied to the EU in a worse situation than we are at the moment. It would leave both remain and leave voters DEEPLY disatisfied. I'm aware that I have no wonder solution to the problem but there again I didn't help get us into this bloody mess in the first place.

Exactly the point I was making in my previous post. No viable alternative put forward. Certainly not one that actually delivers on the Brexit we (I and many others) all voted for.
 
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Exactly the point I was making in my previous post. No viable alternative put forward. Certainly not one that actually delivers on the Brexit we all voted for.

We? Are you speaking for 17 million people? People's reasons for voting leave were a myriad of differences - most of what was promised in the referendum had no chance of happening.
 
Exactly the point I was making in my previous post. No viable alternative put forward. Certainly not one that actually delivers on the Brexit we all voted for.

I am certainly not here to defend the Labour Party but I presume they would claim that going to Brussels without the strict red lines laid down by TM would allow them to negotiate a better deal.
The problem with that approach is that, even if it were possible to re-negotiate, we would end up with a Brexit it name only. I think maybe Barna and Another Surrey Shrimper need to put on their 'objective hats' on (:Smile:) and explain how this would in anyway follow the spirit of those who voted leave. In this kind of situation, do you have to ask yourself whether all the money and time spent on Brexit is going to be worth it?
 
A line written by YB earlier stated "It would leave both remain and leave voters DEEPLY disatisfied" that tends to make one wonder, no matter what the final outcome of this debacle - assuming there will ever be one, of course - how will the Union and Parliament itself not just survive but exist in the future with any credibility.

With the Union - of which I, as an Englishman, am so immensely proud - the surge in what's amounting to out and out hatred from all quarters is very disturbing. I cannot think of another time in our history (bar the English Civl War) where there has been such deep division. To suggest that we are in the midst of what I can only describe as a most (un)Civil War is not an understatement. Not just the Far Left and Right extremists standing toe to toe screaming in each other's faces but those faceless 'keyboard warriors' who're quite happy to extol the virtues of 'their side' being right, you're wrong and that's an end to it. Oh, and for good measure, I'm going to call you all the unpleasant names under the Sun I can think of whilst doing so. Madness and not a little pathetic.

Regardless of whichever way someone voted in the Referendum, the final outcome has, or rather is, showing our Parliament up for being not fit for purpose. I've never been a fan of politics but these last couple of years in particular have shown this group of elected representatives to be a near-total embarrassment. From it's misguided government leader, to those in privileged positions (in all parties) of responsibility doing their damndest to feather their own nest's and now, to the point where the Speaker of the House - arguably THE most important person in the building - abusing his supposedly unbiased position. One wonders how the electorate will reward these politicians when the time comes to make their choices come the next election. That's assuming the electorate will bother in such numbers, of course. I feel that there's potential for a seismic shift in the offing.

For me personally - whilst it matters not one jot which way I cast my vote a couple of years ago, it breaks my heart to see where we are now, how we've got here and for what may still be to come. I certainly don't have any answers - that's what the politicians are supposed to sort out, isn't it ? Well, that being the case - God help us all, whichever way it goes, as the fallout could last for decades.

Sorry if I've waffled on a bit here, I'll just get my coat....:Unsure:
 
A line written by YB earlier stated "It would leave both remain and leave voters DEEPLY disatisfied" that tends to make one wonder, no matter what the final outcome of this debacle - assuming there will ever be one, of course - how will the Union and Parliament itself not just survive but exist in the future with any credibility.

With the Union - of which I, as an Englishman, am so immensely proud - the surge in what's amounting to out and out hatred from all quarters is very disturbing. I cannot think of another time in our history (bar the English Civl War) where there has been such deep division. To suggest that we are in the midst of what I can only describe as a most (un)Civil War is not an understatement. Not just the Far Left and Right extremists standing toe to toe screaming in each other's faces but those faceless 'keyboard warriors' who're quite happy to extol the virtues of 'their side' being right, you're wrong and that's an end to it. Oh, and for good measure, I'm going to call you all the unpleasant names under the Sun I can think of whilst doing so. Madness and not a little pathetic.

Regardless of whichever way someone voted in the Referendum, the final outcome has, or rather is, showing our Parliament up for being not fit for purpose. I've never been a fan of politics but these last couple of years in particular have shown this group of elected representatives to be a near-total embarrassment. From it's misguided government leader, to those in privileged positions (in all parties) of responsibility doing their damndest to feather their own nest's and now, to the point where the Speaker of the House - arguably THE most important person in the building - abusing his supposedly unbiased position. One wonders how the electorate will reward these politicians when the time comes to make their choices come the next election. That's assuming the electorate will bother in such numbers, of course. I feel that there's potential for a seismic shift in the offing.

For me personally - whilst it matters not one jot which way I cast my vote a couple of years ago, it breaks my heart to see where we are now, how we've got here and for what may still be to come. I certainly don't have any answers - that's what the politicians are supposed to sort out, isn't it ? Well, that being the case - God help us all, whichever way it goes, as the fallout could last for decades.

Sorry if I've waffled on a bit here, I'll just get my coat....:Unsure:

Don't apologise, that's spot on. The fires have been stoked by the popular press and far right parties who have outright lied to push over the leave rhetoric and I'm sure the Remain side are hardly blameless, equating so much misery to the mess of Brexit that Cameron began back in 2015.

There is no clear majority for anything. Even on the leave side there are differences to what kind of leave people want. I do not know what the answer is, and I don't think anybody does. Perhaps we should go down the route of making votes mandatory as they do it Australia. Don't want to vote, then spoil it - but least make the effort, then perhaps any messes like this can be eradicated in the future. But I doubt it.
 
No way is the TM deal going through as it is.
That is good IMO.
What isn't good is that in PQT, again, the opposition were asked for their input and suggestions on what would make an acceptable deal BUT nothing from that side of the House was forthcoming.
Surely to God in such times of crisis and uncertainty - almost a time of National Emergency - the mandarins of Westminster ought to forget their "them and us" and try offering solutions?
PMQs is not really the time to ask for Opposition input, that would only be done as an attempt to deflect.
John McDonnel has stated many times that Labour are willing to work with the government to find common ground and yesterday Kier Starmer said that not once had anyone from the government approached him for any input.
 
PMQs is not really the time to ask for Opposition input, that would only be done as an attempt to deflect.
John McDonnel has stated many times that Labour are willing to work with the government to find common ground and yesterday Kier Starmer said that not once had anyone from the government approached him for any input.

The improved living wage came about as a result of, iirc, Labour making it a policy/promise and the Tories taking it on and actioning it. Okay maybe they stole that policy but to my mind Labour got it moving AND if they (Labour) had a good idea on this Brexit then please share it - or is it a secret? I do believe KS spends a lot of time in front of camera repeating the same stuff and perhaps he could say something new - and if it was a good idea get the credit for saying it first etc.
 
A line written by YB earlier stated "It would leave both remain and leave voters DEEPLY disatisfied" that tends to make one wonder, no matter what the final outcome of this debacle - assuming there will ever be one, of course - how will the Union and Parliament itself not just survive but exist in the future with any credibility.

With the Union - of which I, as an Englishman, am so immensely proud - the surge in what's amounting to out and out hatred from all quarters is very disturbing. I cannot think of another time in our history (bar the English Civl War) where there has been such deep division. To suggest that we are in the midst of what I can only describe as a most (un)Civil War is not an understatement. Not just the Far Left and Right extremists standing toe to toe screaming in each other's faces but those faceless 'keyboard warriors' who're quite happy to extol the virtues of 'their side' being right, you're wrong and that's an end to it. Oh, and for good measure, I'm going to call you all the unpleasant names under the Sun I can think of whilst doing so. Madness and not a little pathetic.

Regardless of whichever way someone voted in the Referendum, the final outcome has, or rather is, showing our Parliament up for being not fit for purpose. I've never been a fan of politics but these last couple of years in particular have shown this group of elected representatives to be a near-total embarrassment. From it's misguided government leader, to those in privileged positions (in all parties) of responsibility doing their damndest to feather their own nest's and now, to the point where the Speaker of the House - arguably THE most important person in the building - abusing his supposedly unbiased position. One wonders how the electorate will reward these politicians when the time comes to make their choices come the next election. That's assuming the electorate will bother in such numbers, of course. I feel that there's potential for a seismic shift in the offing.

For me personally - whilst it matters not one jot which way I cast my vote a couple of years ago, it breaks my heart to see where we are now, how we've got here and for what may still be to come. I certainly don't have any answers - that's what the politicians are supposed to sort out, isn't it ? Well, that being the case - God help us all, whichever way it goes, as the fallout could last for decades.

Sorry if I've waffled on a bit here, I'll just get my coat....:Unsure:
Waffle on, better out than bottling up.

I would say - with the Speaker, what he did was allow an amendment to be voted on. The government have been found in contempt, lost 3 votes in one day, lost a vote on a finance bill, obstructed Parliament by pulling a vote after 4 days of debate. The Speaker allowed a Tory MP to present an amendment for all MPs to vote on to stop the government from neglecting their duties. What he did seems to be for the good of Parliament and the good of the country - forcing the government to govern.
 
The improved living wage came about as a result of, iirc, Labour making it a policy/promise and the Tories taking it on and actioning it. Okay maybe they stole that policy but to my mind Labour got it moving AND if they (Labour) had a good idea on this Brexit then please share it - or is it a secret? I do believe KS spends a lot of time in front of camera repeating the same stuff and perhaps he could say something new - and if it was a good idea get the credit for saying it first etc.
I think the difference would be the approach rather than an idea that the Tories haven't thought of. The Tories need to try to appease their voters, their MPs and the country as a whole. The first two of these are very different for Labour so they would go in with different needs and with a more positive approach to the EU because they on the whole aren't held back by the notion that the EU are effectively a foe.

It's like a team leader - some will try to scare staff into doing their best work and some will try to coax the best work out of the staff. Either way can work and either way can fail. The Tories way seems to have failed and we don't know yet if Labour's style would be more fruitful.
 
PMQs is not really the time to ask for Opposition input, that would only be done as an attempt to deflect.
John McDonnel has stated many times that Labour are willing to work with the government to find common ground and yesterday Kier Starmer said that not once had anyone from the government approached him for any input.
 
The improved living wage came about as a result of, iirc, Labour making it a policy/promise and the Tories taking it on and actioning it. Okay maybe they stole that policy but to my mind Labour got it moving AND if they (Labour) had a good idea on this Brexit then please share it - or is it a secret? I do believe KS spends a lot of time in front of camera repeating the same stuff and perhaps he could say something new - and if it was a good idea get the credit for saying it first etc.

The Tories, of course,voted against the minimum wage when it was first proposed by Blair's government.

Labour's big idea for Brexit is no secret.It revolves around remaining a member of the/a customs union, thus obviating the need for any backstop arrangement.
 
The Tories, of course,voted against the minimum wage when it was first proposed by Blair's government.

Labour's big idea for Brexit is no secret.It revolves around remaining a member of the/a customs union, thus obviating the need for any backstop arrangement.

So the big idea is a non starter and always has been as it is not possible to be a member of the customs union without the other unacceptable conditions.
It is an idea straight from Lord Percy or Baldrick of Blackadder fame; pure fairytale farce.
 
So the big idea is a non starter and always has been as it is not possible to be a member of the customs union without the other unacceptable conditions.
It is an idea straight from Lord Percy or Baldrick of Blackadder fame; pure fairytale farce.

And not being a part of the CU is a non-starter due to the Irish border. So where do we go from here?
 
Disagree. We means everyone. Every single person who voted leave had their own reasons. My sister in law expected the NHS to suddenly get a windfall, my mate said "what's the worst that can happen?".
 
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