England in Sri Lanka and West Indies

[Blueronron]

It will be by 8.35 pm tonight

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Well they made short work of that. Back to square one doesn't even come close.

 

[AndyT]

The mentality is all wrong. That comes from Bayliss and the set-up. We've been 60-4 so many times it's almost like we start our innings at this point.

Bayliss is a one-day coach bringing that mentality to our play style. Sometimes it works and sometimes it's just embarrassing. He pretty much jettisoned people who had any sense of batting long and patiently - Compton being the best example. Cricket isn't always about being on the front foot. Often it can be about wearing down the opposition.

The dismissals of the likes of Bairstow and Moeen Ali are laughable at test level.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

You shouldn't have to be coaching players at this level in the first place. The time to coach players in at schools level not once they have signed professional contracts. Some hard truths need to be discussed like having three wicket keepers in the side at once and three bowling all rounders. Sadly, with Root in charge I can't see much changing. Makes utterly bizarre decisions and speaks a load of twaddle at times as well.
Can't lay this all at Bayliss's door.

 

[AndyT]

I'm not talking about coaching, in terms of their techniques and so on. You're spot on that they should know better.

I'm talking about what they are asked to do and how they are asked to bat.

We don't know how to leave the ball half the time and that's because the instruction is to keep the scoreboard ticking and as a result, players are picked with a one-day mentality - Buttler, Stokes, Bairstow and so on.

Agree with you on Root. Just dull soundbite interviews offering nothing other than "we need to learn in time for the next match". He said that after the 1st Test as well!

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

But do we know that's what they are being instructed to do?
Interviews I've seen with Bayliss suggest this isn't the case.
The only innings I've seen for sometime which really looked like a accomplished test knock was Foakes debut hundred in Sri Lanka. Jennings's hundred was also encouraging - so they've dropped him!

 

[AndyT]

Bayliss talks the right things, but on the first morning in Sri Lanka we were told to go out and take it to the oppo and had a collapse saved by the Foakes innings you mentioned.

That can only come from above.

Compton, on interview, alluded to this fact that he was asked to "get on with it" when he batted under this current set-up.

Jennings has a technique fault against pace, for sure, but his last two dismissals were impatience because he wasn't getting on with it. This sort of thing must play on their minds.

And Rory Burns is a naturally patient opener for Surrey, but even he is starting to try and cut balls over the slips. That's not how openers should play in test cricket.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

I'd be interested to see some comparable states from the previous coaching set up.
Shamefully, I've forgotten who that was!!!
We've had serious batting order issues since we lost Strauss and Trott, now take out Swann who was a real match winner and you can see the issues facing the management.
However, we have players like Leach who think is very unlucky to find himself out of this side and there's a couple of batsmen I think we gave up on far too early, Stoneman, Malan and Pope spring to mind.

 

[AndyT]

No worries. Andy Flower was the previous coach.

I agree we have lost key players and not really replaced them, but seem to be obsessed with all-rounders. Curran being the latest example. Bowling 75mph half-volleys on a wicket where we needed to hit the deck.

Agreed on Leach. Add Vince to those who are removed too soon.

 

[kaymac]

We lack quality players with both bat and bowl and have no genuine pace-bowling. It's a team comprised of one-day players that have no place in the more intricate and tactical five day game. Far too much of the dreadful one-day stuff, any idiot can play that sort of game.

 

[Blueronron]

I also believe the two tier league doesn’t help.
I know it adds a dimension to promoting and relegation, but Denly was division two and I suspect not the greatest bowling he faced, similar the year we won div two Porter was getting wickets for fun ( And yes I am a huge fan of him) but did it educate him ?
The league needs to be combined imho and something in the structure needs to be assessed so even mid table have something to play for, not sure minor leagues have the facilities to come up which would add a dimension to relegation
The three wicket keepers I agree madness, and I wouldn’t write off Curran still young and will learn, and of course we won’t have Jimmy Anderson for ever so who is pushing for his place ?
Good wake up call for selectors in coming months, but I think we need to give W Indies a pat on the back, their bowling was impressive and made the ball move and bamboozle our players, disappointed oh yes, but was good to watch the W Indies looking in the groove

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I also believe the two tier league doesn’t help.
I know it adds a dimension to promoting and relegation, but Denly was division two and I suspect not the greatest bowling he faced, similar the year we won div two Porter was getting wickets for fun ( And yes I am a huge fan of him) but did it educate him ?
The league needs to be combined imho and something in the structure needs to be assessed so even mid table have something to play for, not sure minor leagues have the facilities to come up which would add a dimension to relegation
The three wicket keepers I agree madness, and I wouldn’t write off Curran still young and will learn, and of course we won’t have Jimmy Anderson for ever so who is pushing for his place ?
Good wake up call for selectors in coming months, but I think we need to give W Indies a pat on the back, their bowling was impressive and made the ball move and bamboozle our players, disappointed oh yes, but was good to watch the W Indies looking in the groove

It educated Porter enough to be the best bowler in Div 1 the following season!

Curran is in the team way too early but otherwise we’re not picking inferior all-rounders. It just happens that nearly all our best batsmen also can keep wicket (as do Joe Clarke, Olllie Pope, Duckett who missed out) and our best bowlers generally bat.

 

[Grayson]

It educated Porter enough to be the best bowler in Div 1 the following season!

Curran is in the team way too early but otherwise we’re not picking inferior all-rounders. It just happens that nearly all our best batsmen also can keep wicket (as do Joe Clarke, Olllie Pope, Duckett who missed out) and our best bowlers generally bat.

Agreed with this. Not sure why people get annoyed about the 3 keepers thing. Bairstow and Buttler would play even if they never kept wicket in their life, and Foakes is the best gloveman in the world who was picked as a reserve for the Ashes on his batting. Curran is in the team because he performed so well, but it is hard to ever see him playing regularly in overseas tours unless he becomes a top 6 batsman which, incidentally, Alec Stewart views as being his future.

Regarding an earlier post, merging the two divisions is not the answer in county cricket either. Calling out the standard as not good enough and then wanting to get them playing against the cream are two conflicting ideas. Two division county cricket actually makes selection easier as you can chart a player's ability to progress and step up. County cricket's main issue is that it is nearly all played in April, May and September, meaning bowlers do not work too hard for their wickets and batsmen are always playing on pitches where one will have their name on it.

There are no easy solutions here. England have picked a lot of batsmen who have failed since Strauss, Trott, Bell and KP left the team. Back then we had 7 batsmen averaging 40+, what a luxury that was.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Agreed with this. Not sure why people get annoyed about the 3 keepers thing. Bairstow and Buttler would play even if they never kept wicket in their life, and Foakes is the best gloveman in the world who was picked as a reserve for the Ashes on his batting. Curran is in the team because he performed so well, but it is hard to ever see him playing regularly in overseas tours unless he becomes a top 6 batsman which, incidentally, Alec Stewart views as being his future.

Regarding an earlier post, merging the two divisions is not the answer in county cricket either. Calling out the standard as not good enough and then wanting to get them playing against the cream are two conflicting ideas. Two division county cricket actually makes selection easier as you can chart a player's ability to progress and step up. County cricket's main issue is that it is nearly all played in April, May and September, meaning bowlers do not work too hard for their wickets and batsmen are always playing on pitches where one will have their name on it.

There are no easy solutions here. England have picked a lot of batsmen who have failed since Strauss, Trott, Bell and KP left the team. Back then we had 7 batsmen averaging 40+, what a luxury that was.

Very good point but of course cricket is in the entertainment business and the ECB need bums on seats. High summer, long evenings is ideal for the one day stuff and the argument is it does more harm than good for batsmen who keep having to swap from one day mode to first class week in week out. Didn't seem to do players like Gooch and Richards to much harm but there you go.
On Foakes, tad early to start calling him the best glove man in the world just yet.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Very good point but of course cricket is in the entertainment business and the ECB need bums on seats. High summer, long evenings is ideal for the one day stuff and the argument is it does more harm than good for batsmen who keep having to swap from one day mode to first class week in week out. Didn't seem to do players like Gooch and Richards to much harm but there you go.
On Foakes, tad early to start calling him the best glove man in the world just yet.

I think the gap has grown between fc and limited overs cricket since Gooch and Richards’ day. They were trying to score 250 in 50 overs now it’s more like 250 in 20 overs.

My preference is still for a county championship played Fri-Mon and a midweek floodlit game. At the heart of the debate is who County cricket is for: is it for the retired and those rich enough not to work or is it for the working man or woman outside of their Mon-Fri 9-5?

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

I think the gap has grown between fc and limited overs cricket since Gooch and Richards’ day. They were trying to score 250 in 50 overs now it’s more like 250 in 20 overs.

My preference is still for a county championship played Fri-Mon and a midweek floodlit game. At the heart of the debate is who County cricket is for: is it for the retired and those rich enough not to work or is it for the working man or woman outside of their Mon-Fri 9-5?

It's for cricket lovers - the county game has never attracted vast crowds (not since I've been around in any case) the point I was addressing was when should first class cricket be played for the benefit of developing talent.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the game is basically the same in whoevers day.

 

[Grayson]

Very good point but of course cricket is in the entertainment business and the ECB need bums on seats. High summer, long evenings is ideal for the one day stuff and the argument is it does more harm than good for batsmen who keep having to swap from one day mode to first class week in week out. Didn't seem to do players like Gooch and Richards to much harm but there you go.
On Foakes, tad early to start calling him the best glove man in the world just yet.

Yep it is hard to argue with the financial element of prioritising white ball cricket.

On Foakes, I am speaking on pure wicket keeping ability, but it could be argued Dhoni is better I suppose. In which case you're right it is a tad early - we can call Foakes the best from July 14th when Dhoni packs in international cricket!

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Foakes pays the price for not being Roots mate and is dropped. Ridiculous decision and all because Root will not bat three.

 

[Southminster Shrimper]

Agreed. Selfish and another poor decision.

 

[The Big Dady]

West Indies win the toss England are made to bat first.

England 5 for 0

Rain stopped play