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Froch vs Groves

Ricey

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Gutted I'm working during this fight. As the Haye vs Fury fight is off this is one of the fights of 2013. Personally I'm a Froch fan and think the Cobra will give Groves a pasting. Really enjoyable press conference yesterday between them. Anyone going to be watching?
 
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Not a boxing fan, but I really hope Froch gives him a battering. Groves has would me up in the press this week. Needs to be put in his place.
 

GBJ

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I said 6 months ago, even before the fight was announced that if they ever met, Groves would be too good for him. On last nights showing I still say the same.

The fight was a cracker, candidate for fight of the decade. Well, up until the 9th round. I've never been so wound up over a stoppage in my life. The whole thing was disgusting. Even now I still can't believe it. What an absolute **** ****. It was farcical.

First off, I believed he could beat Froch, and bollocks to what the records will say, George Groves ultimately won last night. He may not have woken up with the belts, but he has woken up, for now at least, the pride of the boxing world.

Secondly, Groves absolutely smashed Froch all around the place. All the better work was done by Groves. He was crisper, sharper, faster. He was unbelievable. Groves made a 3-time world champion look like an amateur. And he was the underdog. This lad will go on to be a very reputable world champion.

Thirdly, the bullsh*t. Froch resorted to trying to fight dirty, which was repeatedly ignored by the referee, Howard Foster. Froch should have had at least 2 points deducted, for hitting on the breaks & constant forearms. He was warned, but he carried on regardless. Foster either didn't have the stones to dock him points or didn't want to. The Stoppage itself - incredible. A complete ****ing joke. George Groves was a young underdog, who's bossed the biggest fight of his life. He's miles ahead on the cards & has even dropped the champ. He hasn't been in any trouble throughout the fight & has not even looked close it. He went toe-to-toe with Froch on numerous occasions & won every single encounter, landing more accurate, devastating blows. He even had the audacity to showboat, drop his hands and encourage Froch to engage him. Then all of a sudden, he's involved in a trade-off in which Froch lands about 3-4 clean punches, and the ref dives in. He wasn't out on his feet. He wasn't looking for a way out. He was throwing back. He was pushing Froch back. He was still in the fight. There was only about 10-15 seconds of the round left, Groves more than deserved his chance to see it through. The ref has made a mockery of the sport. It really is no wonder so many people have instantly thought "fix". Which takes me onto The biggest load of **** of them all, the ****ing official scorecards. At the time of the stoppage, 2 of the judges had the fight 76-75. Which is 4-4 in rounds. It's impossible. It's totally ****ing impossible. The press writers scorecards were analysed and from 46 professional boxing writers/pundits, not a single one of them agreed with the judges at ringside. The press average equated to 78-73 in favour of Groves (which incidentally is exactly what I had it at aswell). The former-pro's & pundits, ridiculed the official cards aswell. Even Eddie Hearn had Groves 2 points up ffs. So that leaves an interesting question.... Are these 2 men incapable of scoring a fight accurately. Or is there any criminal interference? If its the former, (and let's face it writers, former fighters, pundits, forums & social media can't ALL be wrong) then it means these two judges are inept and should be removed from their duties immediately. They are in charge of people's lives/careers/futures, yet cannot score the simplest of fights. Unless of course they did know what they were doing.


Not a boxing fan, but I really hope Froch gives him a battering. Groves has would me up in the press this week. Needs to be put in his place.

Groves is one of the most likeable men in the business. He's a genuine, polite, shy young man. What you've seen is a mixture of things.... Mind games & the Sky Box Office Hype Machine. Froch is the genuine prick out of the 2. He's a bitter, deluded, egotistical person. And what exactly did Groves say that was so bad? He said he was Gunna destroy Froch, he did.

I think Froch would have finished him off but now nobody really wins besides Eddie Hearn....

I hope not. I hope Groves tells them all to go **** themselves, but unfortunately he won't. He's just earned himself a massive bargaining chip for any future fight & will not need the Hearns or Froch to become a world champ.

Also, just to add, we'll never know what would of happened. I totally believe Groves would have composed himself (he has brilliant recovery powers) and boxed Froch to a points victory. Then again with the inexcusable wastes of air marking those all-important score cards, who knows if he'd have been aloud to win. Just to further highlight this, When Amir Khan fought Marcos Maidana in Vegas, he was well up on the cards. In the 10th round though, Maidana unleashed hell on khan which had him out on his feet. Sheer heart and will got him through that round. He was literally gone. The lights were on, but no-one was home. Khan went on to Retain his WBA Light Welterweight Title. Groves was nowhere near as bad as Khan was.
 

Blue_Wes

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I said 6 months ago, even before the fight was announced that if they ever met, Groves would be too good for him. On last nights showing I still say the same.

The fight was a cracker, candidate for fight of the decade. Well, up until the 9th round. I've never been so wound up over a stoppage in my life. The whole thing was disgusting. Even now I still can't believe it. What an absolute **** ****. It was farcical.

First off, I believed he could beat Froch, and bollocks to what the records will say, George Groves ultimately won last night. He may not have woken up with the belts, but he has woken up, for now at least, the pride of the boxing world.

Secondly, Groves absolutely smashed Froch all around the place. All the better work was done by Groves. He was crisper, sharper, faster. He was unbelievable. Groves made a 3-time world champion look like an amateur. And he was the underdog. This lad will go on to be a very reputable world champion.

Thirdly, the bullsh*t. Froch resorted to trying to fight dirty, which was repeatedly ignored by the referee, Howard Foster. Froch should have had at least 2 points deducted, for hitting on the breaks & constant forearms. He was warned, but he carried on regardless. Foster either didn't have the stones to dock him points or didn't want to. The Stoppage itself - incredible. A complete ****ing joke. George Groves was a young underdog, who's bossed the biggest fight of his life. He's miles ahead on the cards & has even dropped the champ. He hasn't been in any trouble throughout the fight & has not even looked close it. He went toe-to-toe with Froch on numerous occasions & won every single encounter, landing more accurate, devastating blows. He even had the audacity to showboat, drop his hands and encourage Froch to engage him. Then all of a sudden, he's involved in a trade-off in which Froch lands about 3-4 clean punches, and the ref dives in. He wasn't out on his feet. He wasn't looking for a way out. He was throwing back. He was pushing Froch back. He was still in the fight. There was only about 10-15 seconds of the round left, Groves more than deserved his chance to see it through. The ref has made a mockery of the sport. It really is no wonder so many people have instantly thought "fix". Which takes me onto The biggest load of **** of them all, the ****ing official scorecards. At the time of the stoppage, 2 of the judges had the fight 76-75. Which is 4-4 in rounds. It's impossible. It's totally ****ing impossible. The press writers scorecards were analysed and from 46 professional boxing writers/pundits, not a single one of them agreed with the judges at ringside. The press average equated to 78-73 in favour of Groves (which incidentally is exactly what I had it at aswell). The former-pro's & pundits, ridiculed the official cards aswell. Even Eddie Hearn had Groves 2 points up ffs. So that leaves an interesting question.... Are these 2 men incapable of scoring a fight accurately. Or is there any criminal interference? If its the former, (and let's face it writers, former fighters, pundits, forums & social media can't ALL be wrong) then it means these two judges are inept and should be removed from their duties immediately. They are in charge of people's lives/careers/futures, yet cannot score the simplest of fights. Unless of course they did know what they were doing.




Groves is one of the most likeable men in the business. He's a genuine, polite, shy young man. What you've seen is a mixture of things.... Mind games & the Sky Box Office Hype Machine. Froch is the genuine prick out of the 2. He's a bitter, deluded, egotistical person. And what exactly did Groves say that was so bad? He said he was Gunna destroy Froch, he did.



I hope not. I hope Groves tells them all to go **** themselves, but unfortunately he won't. He's just earned himself a massive bargaining chip for any future fight & will not need the Hearns or Froch to become a world champ.

Also, just to add, we'll never know what would of happened. I totally believe Groves would have composed himself (he has brilliant recovery powers) and boxed Froch to a points victory. Then again with the inexcusable wastes of air marking those all-important score cards, who knows if he'd have been aloud to win. Just to further highlight this, When Amir Khan fought Marcos Maidana in Vegas, he was well up on the cards. In the 10th round though, Maidana unleashed hell on khan which had him out on his feet. Sheer heart and will got him through that round. He was literally gone. The lights were on, but no-one was home. Khan went on to Retain his WBA Light Welterweight Title. Groves was nowhere near as bad as Khan was.

I went into this fighting wanting and expecting Froch to win with ease. I know he has an ego, but he's World Champ, and I've always been a fan of his somewhat flawed but cavaliered style. And lets face it, he's fought everybody, everywhere, eleven World Title fights on the bounce allows rooms for a certain element of ego.

I did not expect what I saw from Groves that night though. I've watched Groves career with some apathy, I was there when he laboured over deGale (probably the only DeGale fan in the building too), and although he looked technically good, I never really saw anything special in his early fight, bar perhaps his stoppage of Johnson, but only because Froch himself had struggled to a points victory against him. It was bizarrley enough, Groves imitation of Johnson's overhand right fighting style that brought him so much success against Froch - but obviously with a lot more technical ability.

Well, I say I've never seen anything 'special' about Groves, well until that first round one two put Froch on his arse. Wow. It genuinely took my breath away, my brother and I were in shock. I wasn't even sure he would get up, so perfect were the hits he'd just taken. But credit to Froch, he did, and then went on to withstand a barrage of accurate, lethal, heavy overhand rights from George. And that was more the Froch we know, stalking his opponent with reckless abandon, taking the big hits and shaking them off. Wel partially, as usually he would be landing back, the better shots and rocking his opponent. Groves just wasn't allowing him to do that, you could argue 2 rounds Froch as Groves began to tire due to the efforts of his onslaught, another 2 close, but me a Froch fan, I had him 5 points down when the ref stopped it. And me a Froch fan, was outraged at the stoppage. It just seemed so weak. I understand Groves was stumbling away, having received four big hits, I know this was causing him to turn his back, and I know the ref will argue that another two/three hits could have caused serious damage, but it just felt wrong. But I think that may have been more me being outraged at having such an amazing fight being ended prematurely. Yes, Froch was given a few pouundings in the earlier rounds, but he never really took a sustained beating that Groves was in the process of receiving when Foster stopped it, and he was always throwing back, something Groves wasn't doing, he wasn't defending himself, the one thing you must always be doing in the ring, the most important thing the ref will look for in a trouibled fighter.

The Kovalev fight might just be Fosters best argument, Sillakh was on the end of a big KO, got up and was in a 50/50 state of being able to continue, he was upright, lucid and convinced the ref he was ok, the ref gave him an extra 2/3 seconds on top of the eight count, and 10 seconds later, Kovalev landed a humongous right that his opponenet was in no position to defend, and whats more, landed two more as Sillakh dropped to the canvas. Sillakh was knocked clean out, and was in a terrible state, the ref could of prevented that by not allowing him to continue when he got up at eight and was lucid, but in no way fit to continue to fight, more due to the dangerous and lethal finishing prowess of his opponent more than his ability to stand and actually box. Foster could argue, he prevented Groves from this fate. I think he's probably just about right, but we'll never really know. If I was Groves, I be ****ed at the morale victory, and would definitely push for the rematch, I think the bigger question now is whether Froch will actually take it.
 

GBJ

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Some Interesting debating points you've raised there mate. Please allow my rebuttal :)

I went into this fighting wanting and expecting Froch to win with ease. I know he has an ego, but he's World Champ, and I've always been a fan of his somewhat flawed but cavaliered style. And lets face it, he's fought everybody, everywhere, eleven World Title fights on the bounce allows rooms for a certain element of ego.

I agree, nearly every great athlete has that ego. It's expected from those who achieve great things in their respective fields. Froch's whole aura is totally different though. He's a very bitter man IMO. That all stems from not being given the recognition he thought he deserved, when he was on the rise. Unfortunately for him, he was forever in the shadow of Calzaghe, Hatton & Khan who were all bigger draws at the time. They were PPV draws. Froch simply wasn't. And from that evolved (again IMO) a very bitter man. Notice how he's always talking about how tough he is, what a warrior he is, how hard he's had it etc etc, it's almost like he's trying to reinforce these thoughts into the public's minds, incase he falls out of the limelight again. Now you could argue that many boxers have done this, but to me, only Froch comes across as desperate.

Second part of Froch's attitude, again I don't understand. He kept saying Groves had disrespected him? But how? How/what did Groves do exactly? To me, Froch was the one who was being childish? Saying Groves breath stunk, mocking Groves' outfit at the press conference, even Froch's mum stuck her oar in & proclaimed that George would be leaving the ring on a stretcher. What did Groves do? He said he'd beat Froch, he said how he'd beat him, he highlighted his weaknesses. Apart from that, I can't see anything out of the ordinary from usual pre-match needle? IMHO I believe Froch got the hump, and didn't believe Groves was "greatfull" for the title shot & didn't parade out the usual Froch cliches, "he's a warrior" etc.

I did not expect what I saw from Groves that night though. I've watched Groves career with some apathy, I was there when he laboured over deGale (probably the only DeGale fan in the building too), and although he looked technically good, I never really saw anything special in his early fight, bar perhaps his stoppage of Johnson, but only because Froch himself had struggled to a points victory against him. It was bizarrley enough, Groves imitation of Johnson's overhand right fighting style that brought him so much success against Froch - but obviously with a lot more technical ability.

Groves has come on leaps & bounds. I don't think you've given him enough credit for the DeGale fight though. He went into that fight as a massive underdog, about 9/1 IIRC? And showed his technical ability then.

I can clearly recall, standing outside of the O2 Arena, just after Froch had beat Kessler, and telling my mates, IF Groves-Froch happens, Groves wins. Of course, I was ridiculed & laughed at (should point out a lot of my mates are "casual" fans, you know the kind, they watch 1 big fight a year & become experts overnight). Even when I pointed out that Groves style was all wrong for Froch, he's quicker, has KO power & is very tactically astute, people just responded with... "I've never seen this Groves, but Froch beats him in 4 rounds" :hilarious:

Well, I say I've never seen anything 'special' about Groves, well until that first round one two put Froch on his arse. Wow. It genuinely took my breath away, my brother and I were in shock. I wasn't even sure he would get up, so perfect were the hits he'd just taken. But credit to Froch, he did, and then went on to withstand a barrage of accurate, lethal, heavy overhand rights from George. And that was more the Froch we know, stalking his opponent with reckless abandon, taking the big hits and shaking them off. Wel partially, as usually he would be landing back, the better shots and rocking his opponent. Groves just wasn't allowing him to do that, you could argue 2 rounds Froch as Groves began to tire due to the efforts of his onslaught, another 2 close, but me a Froch fan, I had him 5 points down when the ref stopped it.

I never expected that start. I thought Groves would start strong, but he was unbelieveable. He did what he said, he beat Froch to the jab, he backed him up onto the backfoot & made Him look Old tbh. I wouldn't say Froch stalked him at all. The first 4 rounds belonged to Groves. As you said, he didn't allow Froch anything. He simply outboxed & Outclassed him. I had the fight 78-73 for Groves. You simply can't give anymore than 2-3 rounds to Froch, and those rounds that I did give him (5 & 8) were so close, you could easily make a case for either man. The other 6 though, were clear GG rounds. He had the better accuracy, the crisper jabs, the cleaner right hands, he put CF onto the back foot & even had time to slip around the ring like an elite fighter. Those 6 rounds, he dictated the pace & hit CF whenever he wanted. Carl, when he did attack, did so, in the Usual fashion, of flurrys & standing and trading. But even when they did stand and trade, GG had the better of the exchanges, Landing the more hurtful, cleaner shots. Froch hit the arms & gloves A LOT, which are not point scoring punches.

And me a Froch fan, was outraged at the stoppage. It just seemed so weak. I understand Groves was stumbling away, having received four big hits, I know this was causing him to turn his back, and I know the ref will argue that another two/three hits could have caused serious damage, but it just felt wrong. But I think that may have been more me being outraged at having such an amazing fight being ended prematurely. Yes, Froch was given a few pouundings in the earlier rounds, but he never really took a sustained beating that Groves was in the process of receiving when Foster stopped it, and he was always throwing back, something Groves wasn't doing, he wasn't defending himself, the one thing you must always be doing in the ring, the most ve important thing the ref will look for in a trouibled fighter.

I rewatched the fight the other night, and put a totally unbiased hat on, and still didn't change my mind. Make no mistake, Froch was in trouble on more than one occasion. He got up from the KD and looked ****ed. His legs were gone. 20-40 seconds extra in that round & Groves would have got him out of there. All Froch could do was try and tie Groves up & see it out. Groves had him reeling again in the 6th, at one point stiffening Froch's legs with a solid jab. But again, credit to Froch he bit down hard on that gum shield & somehow got through the round. Maybe if GG had applied more pressure, he would have ended it there & then. But that round there was no different from the punishment Groves took in the 9th round. Also, Froch looked like he poured everything into that final attack. He was breathing heavy from round 6 onwards. Theres a massive question IMO, over whether Froch could have gone another 3 rounds. I thought Groves was very rarely troubled throughout the fight. He took some nice shots, but they didn't slow him down. The few seconds before the stoppage, Groves IMO, was not taking a beating at all. Carl threw about 10 punches, but only 3-4 were clean shots. The rest hit the arms/gloves. Groves was stooped, but that's not a sign he was out in his feet, like I've seen some people claim. Infact if you rewatch the fight, in the 3rd & possibly 5th rounds, they go through very similar scenarios, where Groves is on the ropes & stoops low. But both times he escapes & continues boxing, with a clear head. These exchanges, the 6th round exchange & the final exchange in the 9th are no different. If you stop the fight in the 9th, then there's a case that it could/should have been stopped in any of those others. The biggest thing that disproves Groves was in trouble, when Foster pulls him away, and waves it off, Groves instantly reacts with shock and disbelief. From Foster head locking him, to Groves complaints, is about 4 seconds. There's no way on this planet a fighter who's out on their feet, unable to defend themselves regains clarity in 4 seconds. No chance

Im not biased enough to say the fight wouldn't have ended in the next 10-15 seconds, but there's just as much chance that Groves would have regained his composure. No-one knows which way it could have gone. My own opinion is that Groves would have regained composure & possibly stopped Froch either in the 10th or 11th. But there's simply no way of knowing that for fact.

The Kovalev fight might just be Fosters best argument, Sillakh was on the end of a big KO, got up and was in a 50/50 state of being able to continue, he was upright, lucid and convinced the ref he was ok, the ref gave him an extra 2/3 seconds on top of the eight count, and 10 seconds later, Kovalev landed a humongous right that his opponenet was in no position to defend, and whats more, landed two more as Sillakh dropped to the canvas. Sillakh was knocked clean out, and was in a terrible state, the ref could of prevented that by not allowing him to continue when he got up at eight and was lucid, but in no way fit to continue to fight, more due to the dangerous and lethal finishing prowess of his opponent more than his ability to stand and actually box. Foster could argue, he prevented Groves from this fate. I think he's probably just about right, but we'll never really know. If I was Groves, I be ****ed at the morale victory, and would definitely push for the rematch, I think the bigger question now is whether Froch will actually take it.

I haven't seen the Kov-Sillakh fight, but The main point you need to ask, did Sillakh have any chance of winning? If he's miles behind on the cards & hasn't done a lot throughout the fight, then I can't argue with stopping the fight. But, as in Groves position, if he hasn't been in trouble at all, is clearly winning the fight, has had his opponent on the deck, then he deserves his chance to carry on. An opponent's finishing power should have no bearing on a ref's decision to stop it.

There will always be terrible refereeing decisions that go either way. Top of my head, the bad ones of recent times, Enzo Mac being dismantled by Frenkel. Denis Lebedev went 12 rounds with his eye bulging out of his head, Malignaggi went 12 with a broken jaw, Ricky Burns went 12 with a broken jaw. But on the flip side, Look at Gatti-Ward, PAC-JMM, Hearns-Hagler, Khan-Maidana, I could go on & on. All excellent bouts, which were allowed to carry on, despite severe brutality, especially Gatti-Ward, which obviously needs no explanation (and for anyone who's never seen Arturo Gatti Vs Micky Ward 1, there's a reason why it is known as THE best fight of all time)

I'll finish with this... There's a rumour doing the rounds. ALLEDGEDLY Howard Foster has admitted he was too quick to stop it, but the BBBoC WILL NOT allow him to admit this publically. These rumours were fuelled by Adam Booth's tweet... @boxingbooth: To make a mistake is human and normal..to not be allowed to ADMIT that mistake is wrong! Admission should = mandatory rematch!

The plot thickens....
 

Blue_Wes

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Some Interesting debating points you've raised there mate. Please allow my rebuttal :)

Gonna have to rebutt your rebuttal I'm afraid...

I agree, nearly every great athlete has that ego. It's expected from those who achieve great things in their respective fields. Froch's whole aura is totally different though. He's a very bitter man IMO. That all stems from not being given the recognition he thought he deserved, when he was on the rise. Unfortunately for him, he was forever in the shadow of Calzaghe, Hatton & Khan who were all bigger draws at the time. They were PPV draws. Froch simply wasn't. And from that evolved (again IMO) a very bitter man. Notice how he's always talking about how tough he is, what a warrior he is, how hard he's had it etc etc, it's almost like he's trying to reinforce these thoughts into the public's minds, incase he falls out of the limelight again. Now you could argue that many boxers have done this, but to me, only Froch comes across as desperate.

Second part of Froch's attitude, again I don't understand. He kept saying Groves had disrespected him? But how? How/what did Groves do exactly? To me, Froch was the one who was being childish? Saying Groves breath stunk, mocking Groves' outfit at the press conference, even Froch's mum stuck her oar in & proclaimed that George would be leaving the ring on a stretcher. What did Groves do? He said he'd beat Froch, he said how he'd beat him, he highlighted his weaknesses. Apart from that, I can't see anything out of the ordinary from usual pre-match needle? IMHO I believe Froch got the hump, and didn't believe Groves was "greatfull" for the title shot & didn't parade out the usual Froch cliches, "he's a warrior" etc.

The first part, I think he has a point. Show me another fighter that has had the run of fights he has. Home, away, title holder, defence, title holder, he did it all, never shied from a fight, and fought anywhere, that sort of determination and dedication deserves credit. If I did that and didn’t get any real recognition, I’d probably be a bit peeved too. But for me, he continued to do what he did, and did it well, and got that recognition. I don’t have a problem with a fighter banging on about his own achievements if they are good solid achievements.

Second part I agree, Groves was trying to get up his nose, it worked and he took it personally, added to the fact Groves sparred with Kessler and he really got a bee in his bonnet. It worked wonders for Groves as well, as I think Froch took his eye off the ball, he started wanting to really hurt him and knock him out, and it got personal for him, last time I saw him behave like that pre-fight was Ward, and we all know what happened there.


Groves has come on leaps & bounds. I don't think you've given him enough credit for the DeGale fight though. He went into that fight as a massive underdog, about 9/1 IIRC? And showed his technical ability then.

I can clearly recall, standing outside of the O2 Arena, just after Froch had beat Kessler, and telling my mates, IF Groves-Froch happens, Groves wins. Of course, I was ridiculed & laughed at (should point out a lot of my mates are "casual" fans, you know the kind, they watch 1 big fight a year & become experts overnight). Even when I pointed out that Groves style was all wrong for Froch, he's quicker, has KO power & is very tactically astute, people just responded with... "I've never seen this Groves, but Froch beats him in 4 rounds"
image001.gif@01CEF2A1.2F4D13C0
That’s probably because I don’t actually think he won, for me it was a draw with perhaps DeGale edging. I was with a Groves fan at the time and we’d had a little wager. He’d already handed me the money before the result was announced. We were both as surprised as each other. If I’m honest, I don’t think either fighter covered themselves in glory that night. The two styles just clashed to create an awful fight, no-one really got going and it was a case of the greater aggressor and who got the better hits. For us as opposing fans, we both thought DeGale just, but a draw would be fair. Like I say, until the Froch fight (and the GJ KO) I’ve never really seen much in Groves other than technical ability and a tidy style.


I never expected that start. I thought Groves would start strong, but he was unbelieveable. He did what he said, he beat Froch to the jab, he backed him up onto the backfoot & made Him look Old tbh. I wouldn't say Froch stalked him at all. The first 4 rounds belonged to Groves. As you said, he didn't allow Froch anything. He simply outboxed & Outclassed him. I had the fight 78-73 for Groves. You simply can't give anymore than 2-3 rounds to Froch, and those rounds that I did give him (5 & 8) were so close, you could easily make a case for either man. The other 6 though, were clear GG rounds. He had the better accuracy, the crisper jabs, the cleaner right hands, he put CF onto the back foot & even had time to slip around the ring like an elite fighter. Those 6 rounds, he dictated the pace & hit CF whenever he wanted. Carl, when he did attack, did so, in the Usual fashion, of flurrys & standing and trading. But even when they did stand and trade, GG had the better of the exchanges, Landing the more hurtful, cleaner shots. Froch hit the arms & gloves A LOT, which are not point scoring punches.


I rewatched the fight the other night, and put a totally unbiased hat on, and still didn't change my mind. Make no mistake, Froch was in trouble on more than one occasion. He got up from the KD and looked ****ed. His legs were gone. 20-40 seconds extra in that round & Groves would have got him out of there. All Froch could do was try and tie Groves up & see it out. Groves had him reeling again in the 6th, at one point stiffening Froch's legs with a solid jab. But again, credit to Froch he bit down hard on that gum shield & somehow got through the round. Maybe if GG had applied more pressure, he would have ended it there & then. But that round there was no different from the punishment Groves took in the 9th round. Also, Froch looked like he poured everything into that final attack. He was breathing heavy from round 6 onwards. Theres a massive question IMO, over whether Froch could have gone another 3 rounds. I thought Groves was very rarely troubled throughout the fight. He took some nice shots, but they didn't slow him down. The few seconds before the stoppage, Groves IMO, was not taking a beating at all. Carl threw about 10 punches, but only 3-4 were clean shots. The rest hit the arms/gloves. Groves was stooped, but that's not a sign he was out in his feet, like I've seen some people claim. Infact if you rewatch the fight, in the 3rd & possibly 5th rounds, they go through very similar scenarios, where Groves is on the ropes & stoops low. But both times he escapes & continues boxing, with a clear head. These exchanges, the 6th round exchange & the final exchange in the 9th are no different. If you stop the fight in the 9th, then there's a case that it could/should have been stopped in any of those others. The biggest thing that disproves Groves was in trouble, when Foster pulls him away, and waves it off, Groves instantly reacts with shock and disbelief. From Foster head locking him, to Groves complaints, is about 4 seconds. There's no way on this planet a fighter who's out on their feet, unable to defend themselves regains clarity in 4 seconds. No chance

Im not biased enough to say the fight wouldn't have ended in the next 10-15 seconds, but there's just as much chance that Groves would have regained his composure. No-one knows which way it could have gone. My own opinion is that Groves would have regained composure & possibly stopped Froch either in the 10th or 11th. But there's simply no way of knowing that for fact.

Yeah, that start had my brother and I on our feet in shock. I had my hands over my mouth, turned to my brother and he was doing the same. It was an amazing start, even more so as it was straight out of Groves hand book. I honestly thought he would see him off in the first after that. All credit to Groves, I had the same score as you and he outboxed Froch for the majority, but the tide was turning. Groves was tiring, from the number of hits he’d taken, even hits to the arms and gloves will tire you, will make the arms heavy and take the power out of your own punches. He hasn’t got the experience Froch has in going the distance, I think this was only the third or fourth time he been into tht e second half of a fight. Frcoh was walking through his punches with more ease as the fight went on, this wasn’t helping Froch on the scorecards, but it was turning the fight into a Froch type of fight as Froch does have the ability to fight for twelve rounds, and maintain power in his punches for twelve rounds. I think Froch had more in the tank than Groves, but both were equally dangerous. I don’t think the fight had twelve rounds in it, if it didn’t ended when it did, it would of ended shortly after, I think probably Froch, but certainly Groves had it in him to win it too, I just think he was struggling at the point of stoppage. The ref will always arguing he wasn’t throwing back when he received the sustained barrage of shots that stopped it (I appreciate only four were decent landing shots), but he was also turning away. It’s this lack of defending himself, that allowed Foster to stop the fight. I think watching back, he could of, given the nature of the fight, given a standing count perhaps, it would have been fairer, but he only had a couple of seconds to make his decision though.


I haven't seen the Kov-Sillakh fight, but The main point you need to ask, did Sillakh have any chance of winning? If he's miles behind on the cards & hasn't done a lot throughout the fight, then I can't argue with stopping the fight. But, as in Groves position, if he hasn't been in trouble at all, is clearly winning the fight, has had his opponent on the deck, then he deserves his chance to carry on. An opponent's finishing power should have no bearing on a ref's decision to stop it.

Yeah, it was the second round and he’d stood up. He could of landed one sweet lucky punch and ended it all. But just because a fighter is lucid enough to stand still and raise his gloves, doesn’t mean he is ok to continue, the ref needs to recognise this, and which is why we get contentious stoppages. It has to be safety first, as much as we love seeing that knock out punch.

There will always be terrible refereeing decisions that go either way. Top of my head, the bad ones of recent times, Enzo Mac being dismantled by Frenkel. Denis Lebedev went 12 rounds with his eye bulging out of his head, Malignaggi went 12 with a broken jaw, Ricky Burns went 12 with a broken jaw. But on the flip side, Look at Gatti-Ward, PAC-JMM, Hearns-Hagler, Khan-Maidana, I could go on & on. All excellent bouts, which were allowed to carry on, despite severe brutality, especially Gatti-Ward, which obviously needs no explanation (and for anyone who's never seen Arturo Gatti Vs Micky Ward 1, there's a reason why it is known as THE best fight of all time)

That Maidaina fight grates on me so much. Maidain won that fight for me. Khan did not deserve to continue, he was in no position to fight or defend himself and just held on for four, maybe five rounds, no fighting, just spoiling dead on his feet. It just added fuel to my ever growing hate campaign for Amir Khan. I pray he gets Mayweather in the UK (oddly, one of the few fights he is suited to), as I’d like to see him schooled again. Failing that, Matthysse, as apparently Khan feels he has the fighting style suited to Matthysse – it’s pronounced chin Amir. You have the chin suited to Matthysse’s style.

I'll finish with this... There's a rumour doing the rounds. ALLEDGEDLY Howard Foster has admitted he was too quick to stop it, but the BBBoC WILL NOT allow him to admit this publically. These rumours were fuelled by Adam Booth's tweet... @boxingbooth: To make a mistake is human and normal..to not be allowed to ADMIT that mistake is wrong! Admission should = mandatory rematch!

The plot thickens....
That really wouldn’t surprise me, not as big a scandal as the scorecards though.
 

Blue_Wes

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I totally believe Groves would have composed himself (he has brilliant recovery powers) and boxed Froch to a points victory. Then again with the inexcusable wastes of air marking those all-important score cards, who knows if he'd have been aloud to win. Just to further highlight this, When Amir Khan fought Marcos Maidana in Vegas, he was well up on the cards. In the 10th round though, Maidana unleashed hell on khan which had him out on his feet. Sheer heart and will got him through that round. He was literally gone. The lights were on, but no-one was home. Khan went on to Retain his WBA Light Welterweight Title. Groves was nowhere near as bad as Khan was.

A further question, why? I've never seen Groves in a position where he has needed to recover. Even against DeGale, although I feel he was edged in a very even bout, he was never in any trouble? What makes you think he has, or where have you seen these recovery powers?

Just checked Boxrec: I've seen nine of Groves last ten outings, and I've never seen him in a position where he'd need to recover prior to Froch. Obviously that's the opposite of a back handed compliment too, that's he's been good enough not to be troubled, but I've never witnessed his recovery powers.

Rebutt away.

PS. Oh and Khan? Pah. King Khan my arse. :smile: The only thing weaker than his heart is his chin!
 

GBJ

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Gonna have to rebutt your rebuttal I'm afraid...



The first part, I think he has a point. Show me another fighter that has had the run of fights he has. Home, away, title holder, defence, title holder, he did it all, never shied from a fight, and fought anywhere, that sort of determination and dedication deserves credit. If I did that and didn’t get any real recognition, I’d probably be a bit peeved too. But for me, he continued to do what he did, and did it well, and got that recognition. I don’t have a problem with a fighter banging on about his own achievements if they are good solid achievements.

Second part I agree, Groves was trying to get up his nose, it worked and he took it personally, added to the fact Groves sparred with Kessler and he really got a bee in his bonnet. It worked wonders for Groves as well, as I think Froch took his eye off the ball, he started wanting to really hurt him and knock him out, and it got personal for him, last time I saw him behave like that pre-fight was Ward, and we all know what happened there.

Fully agree.

Froch made Himself look silly at times in the build up. As I said. I fully 100% believe, He got annoyed because he didn't think GG had earned a title shot, then what tipped him over the edge, was when GG didn't praise Froch in the build up, like previous Froch opponents have done.

That’s probably because I don’t actually think he won, for me it was a draw with perhaps DeGale edging. I was with a Groves fan at the time and we’d had a little wager. He’d already handed me the money before the result was announced. We were both as surprised as each other. If I’m honest, I don’t think either fighter covered themselves in glory that night. The two styles just clashed to create an awful fight, no-one really got going and it was a case of the greater aggressor and who got the better hits. For us as opposing fans, we both thought DeGale just, but a draw would be fair. Like I say, until the Froch fight (and the GJ KO) I’ve never really seen much in Groves other than technical ability and a tidy style.

Even if it had finished up as a draw, Groves still deserves massive credit. As I said, he was about 9/1 to win that fight. In football terms. That's the equivalent of us beating Man Utd. That's why I said I don't think you're giving him enough credit. IIRC the fight itself wasn't really that entertaining, but the outcome was incredible. It's the same as us beating Man Utd 1-0, then saying, "yeah but we only scored one goal". The fact we even got a result is the key point, not the manner.


Yeah, that start had my brother and I on our feet in shock. I had my hands over my mouth, turned to my brother and he was doing the same. It was an amazing start, even more so as it was straight out of Groves hand book. I honestly thought he would see him off in the first after that. All credit to Groves, I had the same score as you and he outboxed Froch for the majority, but the tide was turning. Groves was tiring, from the number of hits he’d taken, even hits to the arms and gloves will tire you, will make the arms heavy and take the power out of your own punches. He hasn’t got the experience Froch has in going the distance, I think this was only the third or fourth time he been into tht e second half of a fight. Frcoh was walking through his punches with more ease as the fight went on, this wasn’t helping Froch on the scorecards, but it was turning the fight into a Froch type of fight as Froch does have the ability to fight for twelve rounds, and maintain power in his punches for twelve rounds. I think Froch had more in the tank than Groves, but both were equally dangerous. I don’t think the fight had twelve rounds in it, if it didn’t ended when it did, it would of ended shortly after, I think probably Froch, but certainly Groves had it in him to win it too, I just think he was struggling at the point of stoppage. The ref will always arguing he wasn’t throwing back when he received the sustained barrage of shots that stopped it (I appreciate only four were decent landing shots), but he was also turning away. It’s this lack of defending himself, that allowed Foster to stop the fight. I think watching back, he could of, given the nature of the fight, given a standing count perhaps, it would have been fairer, but he only had a couple of seconds to make his decision though.

Granted GG is inexperienced & of course, naturally there's question marks over whether he was able to deal with that intense pressure for another 3 rounds. BUT, the old saying in boxing is "you get old, overnight", and Froch IMO was spent in that 9th round. From the 6th onwards his mouth was open, he was ******* in as much air as he could. He was shattered.

I can't accept the idea that the fight was turning. Up til the stoppage GG was winning round 9. Round 8 was a very close one, you can make a case for either man or even a draw, but 6 & 7 were 100% GG rounds. That doesn't represent change to me. Groves was still having the better of the exchanges & doing the better work.


Yeah, it was the second round and he’d stood up. He could of landed one sweet lucky punch and ended it all. But just because a fighter is lucid enough to stand still and raise his gloves, doesn’t mean he is ok to continue, the ref needs to recognise this, and which is why we get contentious stoppages. It has to be safety first, as much as we love seeing that knock out punch.

Agree. However, that was total incompetence from Foster. If nearly every single person says the same thing, then there's a chance they may have a point.



That Maidaina fight grates on me so much. Maidain won that fight for me. Khan did not deserve to continue, he was in no position to fight or defend himself and just held on for four, maybe five rounds, no fighting, just spoiling dead on his feet. It just added fuel to my ever growing hate campaign for Amir Khan. I pray he gets Mayweather in the UK (oddly, one of the few fights he is suited to), as I’d like to see him schooled again. Failing that, Matthysse, as apparently Khan feels he has the fighting style suited to Matthysse – it’s pronounced chin Amir. You have the chin suited to Matthysse’s style.

That really wouldn’t surprise me, not as big a scandal as the scorecards though.

No chance of Mayweather fighting In the UK ever IMO. But the rumour is Khan-Mayweather signed, sealed & delivered for May 3rd in Vegas. Announcement due this week or next allegedly.

A further question, why? I've never seen Groves in a position where he has needed to recover. Even against DeGale, although I feel he was edged in a very even bout, he was never in any trouble? What makes you think he has, or where have you seen these recovery powers?

Just checked Boxrec: I've seen nine of Groves last ten outings, and I've never seen him in a position where he'd need to recover prior to Froch. Obviously that's the opposite of a back handed compliment too, that's he's been good enough not to be troubled, but I've never witnessed his recovery powers.

Rebutt away.

PS. Oh and Khan? Pah. King Khan my arse. :smile: The only thing weaker than his heart is his chin!

Groves was dropped in the 2rd or 3rd by Kenny Anderson, But recovered to stop him in the 6th. He took an almighty beating off of Paul Smith in their fight. At the end of round one, he looked very wobbly, but managed to brutally KO Smith in the very next round. He was dropped by Froch in sparring, but got up and carried on. That's just off the top of my head.
 

Blue_Wes

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Ok, saw the ending again on Ringside's fight of the year. Was definitely stopped too early.

That's all you're getting though!
 

GBJ

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IBF have ordered a rematch. Seems theys agreed with the 'stopped too early' theory aswell. Groves-Froch 2 is on.

Groves wins aswell.
 

Ricey

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Oh dear I don't think Froch was expecting that after the way he was talking on ringside the other day.
 

tia

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Oh dear I don't think Froch was expecting that after the way he was talking on ringside the other day.
Froch wanted to fight someone else in the USA first.I think this is the right decision.Groves deserves another chance and if Froch never fights Groves again in years to come his legacy would be damaged.
 

Ricey

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Froch wanted to fight someone else in the USA first.I think this is the right decision.Groves deserves another chance and if Froch never fights Groves again in years to come his legacy would be damaged.

If he doesn't fight Groves he will lose a lot of fans. Plus he keeps shouting his mouth of about it now he needs to put his words back into the ring and prove that he can beat Groves without the ref stopping it too early again. I can't wait for this fight! Sometimes I think they plan things like this just to make even more money.
 

GBJ

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If he doesn't fight Groves he will lose a lot of fans. Plus he keeps shouting his mouth of about it now he needs to put his words back into the ring and prove that he can beat Groves without the ref stopping it too early again. I can't wait for this fight! Sometimes I think they plan things like this just to make even more money.

He has lost a lot of fans already. It's the manner in which he's carried himself post-fight that has put a lot of fans off. Outlandish statements such as "the best man won", & "I was in control of the fight", have made Froch look even more egotistical & deluded than ever before.

I rewatched Froch-Kessler II for the first time the other night (I was there at the O2 on May 25th, watching live, but a mixture of booze & **** seats made it a completely different fight). Anyway, Froch looked past it in that fight. His best days, IMO, are long gone. He scraped through a tough battle, against an opponent who is also past his best & in his twilight years. He got a very lucky way out against Groves, who would have undoubtedly, IMO, gone on & won that fight.

Unfortunately for Froch, the old boxing cliche is very apt.... "Boxers get old overnight".

In any case, Groves wins the rematch, and quite possibly stops Froch in the process.
 

Ricey

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I honestly think this won't be an easy fight for Groves. Froch is not going to let happen the embarrassming time Groves gave him happen twice. IMO Froch to win by KO after 5 rounds.
 
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