Old subject revisited

[canveyshrimper]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579850/Levi-Bellfield-sentenced-to-whole-life-in-jail.html

I think there is a mechanism in British law which allows you to jail somebody for life without parole. The case above is a good example.

Interesting case. I still think that a prisoner may still be able to challenge any such decision with the European Court of Human Rights.

 

[Andyhsufc]

Interesting case. I still think that a prisoner may still be able to challenge any such decision with the European Court of Human Rights.

Well it appears that the ECHR are currently deciding whether life-long sentences will be allowed. This is from wiki -

"In February 2007, the European Court of Human Rights announced that it was considering whether it is a contravention of human rights for someone to be sentenced to lifelong imprisonment. This news was made public just after David Bieber was due to lodge an appeal against the trial judge's recommendation that he should never be released from prison. His appeal was due to have been heard at this time, but was delayed due to this uncertainty as to whether lifelong imprisonment will remain lawful. If the European judges rule that lifelong imprisonment is a violation of human rights, all prisoners serving whole life tariffs will have their cases recalled to the courts for a new minimum term to be set. Such a ruling would be highly controversial in many other European countries where the option for whole-life sentences exists, as some European states have whole-life sentences, whereas others do not. For instance in the Netherlands, when a life sentence is passed, it is always intended to mean "life". So far, just two Dutch life sentence prisoners have been freed, and even then it was due to terminal illness in both cases. In Spain, for instance, the maximum time anyone can serve in prison is 40 years"

 

[canveyshrimper]

Good find it was the Bieber case I was thinking of when I made my post, I thought it was Jeremy Bamber who challenged the upgrade of his sentence from a minimum term to life.

 

[South Bank Hank]

Well then what would be wrong with giving people a life (without parole) sentence if they commit a murder? This would mean that all sentences are uniform and that the public are protected.

Nothing wrong with it, I'd just prefer not to have to pay for them for the rest of their lives. Prison cells are scarce enough and this would make more space.

Remember, I would be advocating legal suicide for ALL murderers in this way, not just the smoking gun ones, were it not for the potential travesties in justice. As I mentioned before, the only difference for me comes down to proof and evidence, and I do not place any importance on uniformity in sentences as I don't think it matters.

Cost aside though, life without parole is a great next alternative - we just don't seem to have the balls for it!

 

[Andyhsufc]

Nothing wrong with it, I'd just prefer not to have to pay for them for the rest of their lives. Prison cells are scarce enough and this would make more space.

Remember, I would be advocating legal suicide for ALL murderers in this way, not just the smoking gun ones, were it not for the potential travesties in justice. As I mentioned before, the only difference for me comes down to proof and evidence, and I do not place any importance on uniformity in sentences as I don't think it matters.

Cost aside though, life without parole is a great next alternative - we just don't seem to have the balls for it!

The cost idea is a good point actually in the sense that it costs £32,000 to keep someone in prison per year. I think the way forward would be to find ways to cut the cost of keeping someone in prison.

 

[OldBlueLady]

The cost idea is a good point actually in the sense that it costs £32,000 to keep someone in prison per year. I think the way forward would be to find ways to cut the cost of keeping someone in prison.

Don't know where you got that figure from, but to me that completely justifies the death penalty in those cases where there is NO shadow of a doubt. That £32k could be much better spent elsewhere.

 

[Andyhsufc]

Don't know where you got that figure from, but to me that completely justifies the death penalty in those cases where there is NO shadow of a doubt. That £32k could be much better spent elsewhere.

The figure was from the Scottish Prison Service (so it may be different in this country). I think you will struggle to find many cases where it is 100% nailed on tbh.

 

[OldBlueLady]

The figure was from the Scottish Prison Service (so it may be different in this country). I think you will struggle to find many cases where it is 100% nailed on tbh.

I don't know, it would have accounted for Brady and Hindley - and that paedophile gang that did for Jason Swift.

 

[Lord Football]

To be fair LF I was referring to the three you highlighted and the time they were convicted.

Steveo, I think the point I am trying to make is that no matter what, no judicial system gets it right everytime, all the time. Stagg, the Dando killer stand out as two very recent judicial screw ups. Fifty years ago those two guily men would be dead now, killed by us.

 

[Firestorm]

I understand your point but am not too worried about a question of fairness for convicted murderers. There's a clear enough difference between someone being convicted on the strength of a smoking gun and someone being convicted on the strength of a DNA match.

Even though I'm suggesting a sentence based on evidence, the law is already littered with multi-tier sentencing and rightly so.

Would that not tend to encourage people to "shoot their way out" so that they can ditch the weapon ?

I read once that one of the problems with the death penalty is the "in for a penny" mentality

That said looking for substantiation to the above I found this on Cop Killer Harry Roberts
"He almost certainly opened fire because he thought that the policemen were about to search the van and believed he would get fifteen years if he was caught with a firearm"

and that was just 2 years after the abolition of the death penalty so it seems he was playing the numbers game (but he got a minimum of 30 years and he is still inside over 40 years later)

 

[canveyshrimper]

...and apparently parole has been granted to him.

 

[Napster]

Don't know where you got that figure from, but to me that completely justifies the death penalty in those cases where there is NO shadow of a doubt. That £32k could be much better spent elsewhere.

32k in the grand scheme of things is piffling. That doesnt justify anything.

 

[OldBlueLady]

32k in the grand scheme of things is piffling. That doesnt justify anything.

That was £32k per year! Not really so piffling when you talk about the likes of these people

Ian Brady and Myra Hindley (ok, I know she's dead now)

Dennis Neilson

Sidney Cooke (accomplice Leslie Bailey died in prison some years ago)

Peter Sutcliffe

Colin Ireland

Rosemary West

 

[Firestorm]

That was £32k per year! Not really so piffling when you talk about the likes of these people

Ian Brady and Myra Hindley (ok, I know she's dead now)

Dennis Neilson

Sidney Cooke (accomplice Leslie Bailey died in prison some years ago)

Peter Sutcliffe

Colin Ireland

Rosemary West

As the death penalty is not revenge , but a deterrent, do you feel that the it would have stopped any of those mentioned from offending in the first place.

Bundy , Berkowitz, Gacy, De salvo, killed numerous people between them over a lengthy period all in a country with the death penalty so the deterrent did not stop them.

Serial Killers are a different ball game to the gang related / "one off " murders , which may well be prevented by the deterrent of tougher sentences.

In the last 40 years (coincidentally the same time scale since the abolition of the death penalty) its the respect for the Law and the law enforcers which has deserted us. This has galvanised an " I dont care what the police say" mentality.

Unfortunately this may well be due to successive generations of parents being disillusioned with authority after wars where conscripts were slaughter and those returning feeling let down, leading to the parents of the late 50's and early 60's having similar attitudes to their elders and theresulting knock on effect

 

[Napster]

That was £32k per year! Not really so piffling when you talk about the likes of these people

Of course it is. 32k a year is worth the attempt to study why they did it. Maybe by studying them while they are still alive it gives us an insight into their psyche and we can stop similar people doing it in the future.

32k a year pays for many a Guardian-type council job. I'd rather spend my cash on the killers than them.

 

[pickledseal]

Try watching these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6N4BV9M6wo - effects on executioner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFBS9fif_JA - making MORE victims

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doX4ljCm64Y - young offenders

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVMho2cP1NE - incredibly powerful! Jeremy Irons

Just used with my Y10s

 

[Firestorm]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/8102600.stm

Another innocent man who would have hanged

 

[Thorpe Groyney]

I've always believed a human has no right to take another human's life and so, on that basis, the old testament 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' adage would be just as wrong.

How about life in jail actually meaning life?