Rochester & Strood by-election

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Were Hope not Hate on a rest day when this happened ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/102...om-ex-BNP-member-for-his-bid-to-be-an-MP.html

I don't think HNH include in their remit that they will continually search the websites of all MPs just in case an ex BNP supporter has left a message on there.

 

[callan]

Not if the market doesn't want them.

Absolutely, however the report cited by London blue suggests that there is plenty the the market will want.
What we need are the right people to spot whats needed and make it work.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And on the subject of Margaret Hodge chasing out the BNP, how about this little gem...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6690007.stm

So do you agree or disagree with what she is reported to have said seven years ago?

 

[Benfleet A1]

Nothing like going back to the 2007 archives for a topical debate..

Just like you did for the very topical Barking council seats won by the BNP.



Get used to seeing this.

 

[callan]

So do you agree or disagree with what she is reported to have said seven years ago?

"We should look at policies where the legitimate sense of entitlement felt by the indigenous family overrides the legitimate need demonstrated by the new migrants," she said.

No different to what Labour are saying now is it?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Absolutely, however the report cited by London blue suggests that there is plenty the the market will want.
What we need are the right people to spot whats needed and make it work.

A country that is generally unwelcoming is unlikely to be the first choice of migrants who are in demand. Future entrepreneurs are also fairly difficult to spot and won't necessarily meet entry requirements.

 

[callan]

A country that is generally unwelcoming is unlikely to be the first choice of migrants who are in demand. Future entrepreneurs are also fairly difficult to spot and won't necessarily meet entry requirements.

Where does the unwelcoming bit come from....why wouldn't we welcome those that bring value?

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

 

[londonblue]

I would agree with you if your assumption that my opinion was based on, we don't need entrepreneurs....however it wasn't....no one has said that.

Surely it is entrepreneurs that discover the gaps in the market.

It is indeed. So how would your controlled immigration deal with a young immigrant who has a poor academic background, and can't prove his worth, much like a young Richard Branson?

 

[callan]

It is indeed. So how would your controlled immigration deal with a young immigrant who has a poor academic background, and can't prove his worth, much like a young Richard Branson?

Branson however did have the support of his family who of course helped him financially in his very first business, I'm assuming of course that the young (do they have to be young?), would arrive on our shores with nothing other than an idea?

Or do they not even have that?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

So do you agree or disagree with what she is reported to have said seven years ago?

I think UKIP have started an unedifying rush to the bottom over immigration in British politics, while both the Tories and Labour are desperately attempting to play catch up.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/cameron-immigration-debate-obama-change

Fortunately the LibDems and Greens have maintained their values.

Immigration is hardly an issue elsewhere in the EU.Certainly not here in Spain.

 

[londonblue]

Branson however did have the support of his family who of course helped him financially in his very first business, I'm assuming of course that the young (do they have to be young?), would arrive on our shores with nothing other than an idea?

Or do they not even have that?

It doesn't really matter. I've asked you what UKIP would do. You have said you want controlled immigration, but agree that entrepreneurs would also be needed. I'm asking you how you would be able to identify them given your controlled immigration policy. How would you deal with someone who has no formal education, and, on paper looks like a bad bet? Someone like Richard Branson. If you want a better example, how about Alan Sugar? He didn't have any financial help from his parents because they were skint.

If you want a less famous example, how about Surinder Arora?

 

[callan]

I think UKIP have started an unedifying rush to the bottom over immigration in British politics, while both the Tories and Labour are desperately attempting to play catch up.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/cameron-immigration-debate-obama-change

Fortunately the LibDems and Greens have maintained their values.

Immigration is hardly an issue elsewhere in the EU.Certainly not here in Spain.

However immigration is an issue here and it would be unedifying for political parties, not to have a debate and course of action over it.

For too long we have had our head in the sand and perhaps have only seen things from a purely economic point of view.
No one is saying that there isn't a case for immigration, however that should not be at the expense of housing, School places, health and social services.

Labour aren't playing catch up at all...their politicians have been saying that this has needed sorting out for some time, see the links posted earlier dating back 2007 (hodge), 2009 (Darling).

Their complete and utter failure to do anything is shameful, they have time and time again ignored their own voters concerns and are now paying the price.

 

[callan]

It doesn't really matter. I've asked you what UKIP would do. You have said you want controlled immigration, but agree that entrepreneurs would also be needed. I'm asking you how you would be able to identify them given your controlled immigration policy. How would you deal with someone who has no formal education, and, on paper looks like a bad bet? Someone like Richard Branson. If you want a better example, how about Alan Sugar? He didn't have any financial help from his parents because they were skint.

If you want a less famous example, how about Surinder Arora?

You keep citing Richard Branson who of course went to an independent private school, and was not a migrant.
Then you come up with Surinder Arora / Alan Sugar again neither of whom were migrants but were the descendants of migrants.

Anyway back on track, firstly the one thing in common all of the above had was they all spoke English, had an understanding of British values and had access to housing and services and indeed benefits should things not work out.
Neither did they have criminal records.

This for me is an absolute minimum requirement, to consider any application.

Secondly I would look at further eligibility such as qualifications, financial capability.

For those that meet the first set of requirements but not the second I would set up sponsorship and funding where you can apply to be assessed on your business idea and if good enough granted a permit.

This is where I believe we can capture those less obvious entrepreneurs.

I would also place yearly limits on numbers able to apply, and limit the ability to stay in the UK initially to a fixed period.
If things work out that can be extended if not you're out.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The problem with expecting to be able to pick and choose who you let in is that those you want will no longer want to come. The procedure described is expecting people to jump through hoops and they will just go somewhere else. Boris Johnson has acknowledged this in that he wants rich Chinese to come and spend money in London but the paperwork to get here was too much hassle so they would not bother with the UK.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

I don't think HNH include in their remit that they will continually search the websites of all MPs just in case an ex BNP supporter has left a message on there.

But your happy in the fact that an ex BNP councilor and one with links to Combat 18 is now representing the Labour party? Funnily enough, he wouldn't be allowed to join UKIP as they don't let in ex BNP members. Something you won't find on the totally fair and balanced Hope not Hate web page no doubt.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Nothing like going back to the 2007 archives for a topical debate..

First brought up by you of course. What are your thoughts on a Labour MP "using the language of the BNP" as one senior Labour official described it, to keep her grubby little fingers in power?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

First brought up by you of course. What are your thoughts on a Labour MP "using the language of the BNP" as one senior Labour official described it, to keep her grubby little fingers in power?

All that is, is differences of opinion within the Labour Party about what terminology should be used. Nothing that she said would raise an eyebrow within UKIP circles so clearly you are fishing. With 2007 bait.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

First brought up by you of course. What are your thoughts on a Labour MP "using the language of the BNP" as one senior Labour official described it, to keep her grubby little fingers in power?

Please seee post 90 in this thread for my reply to *** on this topic.

Also check out the link there:-

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/cameron-immigration-debate-obama-change

for an excellent article, which makes some pertinent points, which I'll come back to (when I have time).

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

First brought up by you of course. What are your thoughts on a Labour MP "using the language of the BNP" as one senior Labour official described it, to keep her grubby little fingers in power?

Please seee post 90 in this thread for my reply to *** on this topic.

Also check out the link there:-

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/cameron-immigration-debate-obama-change

for an excellent article, which makes some pertinent points, which I'll come back to (when I have time).

 

[londonblue]

You keep citing Richard Branson who of course went to an independent private school, and was not a migrant.
Then you come up with Surinder Arora / Alan Sugar again neither of whom were migrants but were the descendants of migrants.

Anyway back on track, firstly the one thing in common all of the above had was they all spoke English, had an understanding of British values and had access to housing and services and indeed benefits should things not work out.
Neither did they have criminal records.

This for me is an absolute minimum requirement, to consider any application.

Secondly I would look at further eligibility such as qualifications, financial capability.

For those that meet the first set of requirements but not the second I would set up sponsorship and funding where you can apply to be assessed on your business idea and if good enough granted a permit.

This is where I believe we can capture those less obvious entrepreneurs.

I would also place yearly limits on numbers able to apply, and limit the ability to stay in the UK initially to a fixed period.
If things work out that can be extended if not you're out.

Ok. What about my grandfather then? He had no qualifications, and didn't speak a word of English when he got here. Some people would say he couldn't even when he died at 92/3! (I'm not sure how old he was when he died, because about 6 months before he popped his clogs he told us a story about how he lied about his age when he arrived here at about 18. We're not sure whether or not that was the truth because it was the first time he had told anyone!)

As I said, I'm asking you what would you do with the people that want to come here with nothing but a will to succeed, just like the people that have set up all these companies and now employ 8.3 million people between them?

As you say yourself, they would fail your tests. But, I'm not asking what YOU would do, I'm asking what the UKIP policy is. It seems these people wouldn't pass any control and would not be allowed in.

I'm also interested in how you personally can justify setting up a sponsorship that sounds much like the dragons den. How many people would you have in the panel? How many people would apply? And why would anyone who has an idea want to tell a whole load of other people who they have never met before what their idea is, just to be rejected, and then have these people copy their idea. That's leaving aside the fact that they may not really know their idea until they get here. Most entrepreneurs will tell you they didn't get it right first time, and actually failed many times until they got it right.

To me this is a half baked ridiculous idea, and I hope to goodness it isn't UKIP policy. However, their "common sense" (your words) policy of controlled immigration would, IMO, not be common sense because it would stifle the entrepreneurial spirit that allows immigrants into this country to contribute more than their fair share to GDP.