The Ashes

[Grayson]

Agreed 100%

 

[ESG]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,11:59)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 22 2005,16:51)]Looks like I'll be there to watch the Aussies go one-up on Sunday...

I was there yesterday... and it was miserable.  It goes down as one of the worst days of international cricket at which I've had the misfortune to be present.  The worst thing is that, so far as I know, I will not be entitled to a refund - even though I witnessed fewer than ten overs' play yesterday.

It p*ssed it down for the 6 hours from when I arrived (9.45 a.m. or so) until play started (3.45pm).

I was then "treated" to an hour of monstrously awful cricket from everyone in an England shirt bar Pietersen.  G.O. Jones's shot was diabolical.  In what conceivable way - when, potentially, there was plenty of rain about and thus playing conservatively must have been the only course to be taken - did he think his casual on-side slap was in any way appropriate?  Nob.

Giles was little better... his second ball a textbook piece of fishing outside off-stump, and the ball was duly chipped to gully.

At this point, Pietersen realised he was running out of partners, and so he began to open up.  In a memorable over against Warne, he brought up his fifty by running two after a measured on-side drive.  The next ball, he absolutely thumped Warne out of the ground with a huge on-side six, and then almost repeated the feat the following ball with another straight drive which only just bounced inside the boundary rope for four.  You could tell that Shane was a tad miffed by the fact that KP had larruped him so dismissvely for 12 in an over.

Meanwhile, McGrath continued to clean up at the other end... and sure enough, KP ran out of partners.  Less than an hour after they'd started - including a break for 10 minutes after a sharp shower - the Aussies had won a crushing victory.  Needless to say, I was more than a tad miffed.

So, where does this leave England?  Right now is not the right time to be advocating wholesale changes, but the following thoughts come to mind:

*The only player to come out totally unblemished is Harmison.  Two cracking bowling performances, and match returns of 8/107 (including a five-fer) is highly respectable given the opposition.  He created genuine fear and respect amongst the Aussies.

*From a batting point of view, Kevin Pietersen was quite clearly the right pick for the side... and (as Mike Atherton said on C4 yesterday) the selectors c*cked it up at the beginning of the summer.  The question ought never to have been Pietersen or Thorpe; it ought instead to have been Thorpe or Bell back in May.  They picked Bell - and perhaps they picked wrong.  Bell has gone from smearing the equivalent of a minor counties attack (Bangladesh) to facing Warne & McGrath - and he is clearly not ready, which is a huge shame.  The only question is: what will damage Bell more - being dropped now, or being taken apart by Warne, Lee and McGrath for the rest of the series?  My guess is that another pair of single figure scores at Egbaston will lead to a campaign of begging outside Graham Thorpe's house for one last hurrah against the Aussies.

*Vaughan needs to sort himself out quick.  Mike Brearley he clearly ain't.  The Ayatollah may have been a mediocre batsman himself, but as a psychology graduate, he knew how to wring 100% out of the likes of Beefy, Bob Willis, John Emburey and Graham Dilley.  Vaughan has not done that this Test.  Look at Freddy - some key wickets, perhaps (notably Gilchrist, twice) - but bloody expensive... match stats of 4/173 simply isn't good enough; and he failed miserably twice with the bat.  This is, by a country mile, the toughest hour of Vaughan's captaincy.  He needs to respond in the simplest - and yet most difficult - way possible: runs.  He neads a hatful at Egbaston.

*I think our openers will do OK.  Both sets of openers had a poor first innings - but at 80/0 in the second innings, we looked fine.  It was the failure of Vaughan, Bell and Freddy with the bat that screwed us, not Banger & Strauss.

*Bowl Jones more.  If it were not for dropped catches, his figures would have been far better.  Inded, the bowling attack looked generally OK, apart from the King of Spain (who was woeful) and the fact that Freddy was far too loose, too often.

*Catching... obviously our biggest flaw.  Catches win matches, as they say.  KP was the highest-profile casualty - but he can improve - or be stuck out in the deep.  But the biggest worry was G.O. Jones.  Two or three regulation chances were put down - and that simply won't do.  Time for Fozzie and Chris Read to start grafting, and getting some high profile scores together in the County Championship.   If Jones continues to fail with the gloves as badly as he did at Lord's, then his spot in the side is in my view definitely up for grabs.  His second-innings batting did little to reinforce his candidature for selection, yesterday.

The selectors are unlikely to change anything in advance of Egbaston, I'd wager.  But they will hopefully be making notes of whom they need to watch.  If the Aussies go 2-0 up in Birmingham (which they will if we play as poorly there as we did at Lord's), then the selectors will need to make changes if we're to save the series - and, importantly, save the cricketing summer.

After all, the Old Trafford Test coincides with the kick-off of the Premier$hite season.  If we go 3-0 down there, then cricket will be relegated to the inside pages for the rest of the summer - and if that happens, it must be seen as a massive failure on the part of the ECB.  I hope it doesn't happen.

Here's to a big improvement in England's fortunes in the next 10 days.

Matt

That was ten overs of we've got a round of golf lined up on Monday so lets get out now!
Why did Pieterson keep taking the singles so early in the over and exposing the rabbits? There was always a chance it could have p***ed down again yesterday evening and look at it today.
Matt, i agree that G.O. Jones is on borrowed time but would give Matt Prior of Sussex the job. I also still nervous about Bangers foot movement and reckon the've got him worked out as they did down under.

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

The over Harmison was out I think Pietersen turned down the singles until the 5th ball of Warne's over to leave Harmison with just one ball left to survive.
He may however have been better advised to look for the single instead of the boundary the over before S. Jones was out.

 

[C C Csiders]

Agree with most of that MtS.

A few of my own views:

Trescothick and Strauss - should be stuck with throughout the series. They have consistently (Strauss for a year, Trescothick for five or so) put together the big scores as their Test averages prove. There are NO better English openers, and a repeat of the 80-0 in the second innings will do for the rest of the series.

Vaughan - hopelessly out of form with the bat, and has been for the best part of a year. Is the captaincy affecting his form? Has to remain a part of the team though as the class will come back in due course - just hope it is during this series.

Bell - has time on his side. Should be retained for the Edgbaston test, then review the situation. However, with Thorpe now retired from international cricket and Butcher injured who else is there? Surely not back to Key again!

Pietersen - inspired. Only a miracle catch dismissed him first innings.Can see him scoring a couple of 100s in the remaining four Tests, as long as he doesn't run out of partners (so move him up to 4). Concentration in the field needs to be improved (but that can be said for most).

Flintoff - bowling was too expensive with too may easy runs. Did cause uncomfotable moments with the ball at times, and if he can keeep icking up Gilchrist cheaply we may yet have a chance. I think he will score runs at some stage. His first innings duck was courtesy of a shooter from McGrath.

G. Jones - in the side as our answer to Gilchrist. However, if you can't keep wicket what's the point. Stayed around in the first innings with a vital 30, but what was that in the second knock. Time for a change here methinks.

Giles - inept with bat, and more worringly the ball. The fact that the 2nd Test is at Edgbaston is the only thing that may save him from the axe. Personally, I might axe him anyway. The Aussies will not be fazed by him at all, and if we haven't got spinners good enough - don't pick them (even if it is a 'turner'). Play your best bowlers whatever they are. If it's spinning (and you would have to ask the groundsman why, given the Warne factor) give Vaughan and Pietersen a go for a few overs and see what happens.

Hoggard - ineffective in this game. Like Flintoff too may easy runs at too may runs per over. Have to keep with him for the time being though.

S. Jones - under-bowled. Can make the Aussies uncomfortable I think given a few more overs.

Harmison - outstanding. I was concerned that he had left his best form behind him following the S Africa tour, but he was back to his best, and the Aussies don't like it.

My selection for Edgbaston: Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan (capt.), Pietersen, Bell, Flintoff, Collingwood, Read (wk), S. Jones, Harmison, Hoggard

I have bolstered the batting (we couldn't break 200 in either innings) by including Collingwood - who may also be a golden arm/partnership breaker with his subtle swinging medium pacers. No point in playing a spinner, as stated above, if they are ineffective and basically not up to the job. Read in for G. Jones as he is a far better keeper and will not drop easy chances. Juggling the lower order as Hoggard doesn't play any shots so we may as well get a few from Jones and Harmison swinging the bat at 9 and 10.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Spot on, C C Csiders. Colly for the Wheelie Bin is a great call. Pietersen up to 4 as well. Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.

Thought Hoggy bowled OK, meself...

Matt

 

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,12:46)]Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.

Do you think he might reconsider his international retirement then?

If not, the best replacement for a non-achieving (and by that I think it is not making at least a 30 or so in the next Test) may have to be Mark Ramprakash. I am no fan of Robert Key.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,12:53)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,12:46)]Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.

Do you think he might reconsider his international retirement then?

If not, the best replacement for a non-achieving (and by that I think it is not making at least a 30 or so in the next Test) may have to be Mark Ramprakash. I am no fan of Robert Key.

If Graveney begged him?  Of course he would.  Closing your career against Bangladesh is no way to go.  Closing your career with a massive knock against the Ockers in front of your home crowd at the Oval is surely the only way that someone like Thorpey should go?

I certainly hope he'd reconsider, at any rate.

If not Thorpey... who?  Maybe Graeme Hick...?!

 

 

OK, being a bit more serious... what about Mal Loye?  He's someone who is clearly scoring for fun at the moment; and someone who despite being a big runs accumulator in the County Championship, seems to get overlooked by England.

A thought, perhaps.

Matt

P.S. Surely you're kidding with Ramps, aren't you? Agree with you about fat-boy Key, though... I'm no fan either.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,13:04)]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,12:53)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,12:46)]Thorpe in for Bell if he fails to hit double figures at Egbaston.

Do you think he might reconsider his international retirement then?

If not, the best replacement for a non-achieving (and by that I think it is not making at least a 30 or so in the next Test) may have to be Mark Ramprakash. I am no fan of Robert Key.

If Graveney begged him?  Of course he would.  Closing your career against Bangladesh is no way to go.  Closing your career with a massive knock against the Ockers in front of your home crowd at the Oval is surely the only way that someone like Thorpey should go?

I certainly hope he'd reconsider, at any rate.

If not Thorpey... who?  Maybe Graeme Hick...?!

 

 

OK, being a bit more serious... what about Mal Loye?  He's someone who is clearly scoring for fun at the moment; and someone who despite being a big runs accumulator in the County Championship, seems to get overlooked by England.

A thought, perhaps.

Matt

P.S. Surely you're kidding with Ramps, aren't you?  Agree with you about fat-boy Key, though... I'm no fan either.

I think that Thorpe is a bloke that once his mind is made up then he won't change.

I am sorry that you refer to Giles as the wheelie bin as described by the buffoon Blofeld, did you see his run out of Brett Lee?? However I do agree that Giles is not the answer as a test spinner and would give Graeme Swann a go, not only an offie who can spin it but a good bat and fielder.

I think the next cab off the rank as batsman if Rob Key is not picked will be Ed Joyce, the nearest i have seen to Gower (David not Mark). After that Ed Smith or possibly Alastair Cook if a berth at the top of the order becomes available. Again here is just a lot of inexperience. I presume the calls for Hick & Ramprakash were a joke. Also the other bif miss for England is Mark Butcher a player the Australians hac=ve great respect for.

I would stick with the pace attack it misfired a bit and i think the Aussies targetted Flintoff to hit him off line. Simon Jones was underbowled as he often is, and i wonder if this is a legacy from his horrific knee injury. Harmison outstanding and the Aussies are not keen on him. I would keep Hoggard as he is 100percenter, but Tremlett is in the wings, although not express pace delivering from 6ft 8" is a great advantage.

I would stay with Geraint Jones for a while longer as i just think he has something about him. It is only largely inexperienced keepers that would replace him. Although with possible Essex bias i would go for James Foster, a better batsman than Read, and a vastly improved gloveman. It also worth remembering with Foster that his last test was against Australia and he earned lots of praise at the time, although now he seems to be forgotten I do not think that batting wise Chris Read is good enough and Matt Prior too inexperienced to chance.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 25 2005,13:59)]I think that Thorpe is a bloke that once his mind is made up then he won't change.

I am sorry that you refer to Giles as the wheelie bin as described by the buffoon Blofeld, did you see his run out of Brett Lee?? However I do agree that Giles is not the answer as a test spinner and would give Graeme Swann a go, not only an offie who can spin it but a good bat and fielder.

I would stay with Geraint Jones for a while longer as i just think he has something about him. It is only largely inexperienced keepers that would replace him. Although with possible Essex bias i would go for James Foster, a better batsman than Read, and a vastly improved gloveman. It also worth remembering with Foster that his last test was against Australia and he earned lots of praise at the time, although now he seems to be forgotten I do not think that batting wise Chris Read is good enough and Matt Prior too inexperienced to chance.

I did see Giles's excellent run-out, and I should of course be loath to use phrases which Blofeld relies on (a buffoon is an excellent description for him, alas - he seems to have lost the plot in recent years).

But there's no escaping the fact that Giles was utterly woeful in this Test - his run out aside, his only contribution appears to have been to let Clarke & Martyn get their eye in at 100/3 in Australia's second innings. A poor repayment of Vaughan's show of faith in him.

As for batsmen - I was kidding about Hick, of course! You may be right about Thorpey - and that would be a shame; that being so, Ed Joyce might be a good call. Ali Cook should be spared - he is too important for England's future.

I've not seen enough of Swann to judge; I can only hope he's better than Gareth Batty - who on each occasion I've seen him in a big game (e.g. last season's C&G final) has been dire. I still think the suggestion of Collingwood is the best I've heard in a while...

As for GO Jones, perhaps it's my anger at the way he threw his wicket away so pathetically yesterday, but whatever - his performance was simply not good enough. My instinct is that it's between Fozzie and Read as to his potential replacements - and I agree with the assessment that, mystifyingly, the selectors appear to have forgotten about Fozzie. He's the ideal choice - better with the gloves than Jones; better with the bat than Read. Jones will stay for Egbaston, but if we lose that in three and a bit days, I expect that calls for the axe to be wielded will become deafening.

As for the bowling, Freddy needs to sort his radar out - too many down leg. Apart from that, the bowling is the least of our worries...

Matt

 

[C C Csiders]

By playing Collingwood we would not (really) need to concern ourselves with the batting prowess of the gloveman. That is why I would go with Read, as he is (in my opinion) clearly the best bet in this department.

I was not kidding about Ramprakash. An Ashes series at 1-0 down is no time to blood test debutants or those with limited Test experience. So I wouldn't consider Ed Joyce (is he qualified, as yet) or Ed Smith who looked hopelessly out of place in the Test arena two years ago. So, in that case the most experienced batsman out there with vast Test experience (without Thorpe and Butcher) is Ramps. Let us not forget it was he alongside Butcher (plus Nasser) that won that Test against the Aussies at Headingley four years ago.

Mal Loye is certainly experienced and may be a good call over the younger batsman waiting in the wings. He is in the runs at the moment, and maybe he should have been called upon 3 or 4 years ago when he was much more prolific.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,14:36)]I was not kidding about Ramprakash.

Perhaps it's just me, but he seems to have the air of a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders... he has the face of a man full of woes, not one full of fight...

Matt

 

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,14:53)]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,14:36)]I was not kidding about Ramprakash.

Perhaps it's just me, but he seems to have the air of a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders... he has the face of a man full of woes, not one full of fight...

Matt

I'm not saying pick him by the way.

Bell remians for now as long as there is runs at Edgbaston. If they do not materialise I just think we need some experience rather than throwing inexperience to the Aussies. We have picked inexperienced players in a side losing to the Ausses before with disastrous effect - think Jason Gallian, and more especially Mark Lathwell who went from opening for England to Second XI cricket never to be seen again in no time at all.

I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,15:04)]I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!

How about Andy Flower...?!

That would be bloody entertaining... after all, he's now a British citizen, isn't he?!

Matt

P.S. I agree that Bell should stay for the Egbaston test - it would be too ridiculously knee-jerk to drop him now...

 

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,15:04)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,14:53)]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,14:36)]I was not kidding about Ramprakash.

Perhaps it's just me, but he seems to have the air of a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders... he has the face of a man full of woes, not one full of fight...

Matt

I'm not saying pick him by the way.

Bell remians for now as long as there is runs at Edgbaston. If they do not materialise I just think we need some experience rather than throwing inexperience to the Aussies. We have picked inexperienced players in a side losing to the Ausses before with disastrous effect - think Jason Gallian, and more especially Mark Lathwell who went from opening for England to Second XI cricket never to be seen again in no time at all.

I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!

In the main you are right, I am sure that Bell will be a good England player for years to come. Difficult to judge about young players for Gallian & Lathwell I will offer you Pietersen & Thorpe both started against the Aussies to the manor born. Poor Lathwell sunk with out trace & Gallian trading water at Notts.

I like Collingwood & would up the fielding, but have my reservations with his medium pace dobbers, Mal Loye is a good shout, and the only other i can think of with big test experience is Nick Knight.

 

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,15:19)]How about Andy Flower...?!

 

That would be bloody entertaining... after all, he's now a British citizen, isn't he?!

Well it did pass through my mind waht the qualification period is for him. It's normally 4 years, but something in the back of my mind says that if a player has played Test cricket for another country they have to serve a 10 year qualification period.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,14:11)]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 25 2005,13:59)]I think that Thorpe is a bloke that once his mind is made up then he won't change.

I am sorry that you refer to Giles as the wheelie bin as described by the buffoon Blofeld, did you see his run out of Brett Lee?? However I do agree that Giles is not the answer as a test spinner and would give Graeme Swann a go, not only an offie who can spin it but a good bat and fielder.

I would stay with Geraint Jones for a while longer as i just think he has something about him. It is only largely inexperienced keepers that would replace him. Although with possible Essex bias i would go for James Foster, a better batsman than Read, and a vastly improved gloveman. It also worth remembering with Foster that his last test was against Australia and he earned lots of praise at the time, although now he seems to be forgotten I do not think that batting wise Chris Read is good enough and Matt Prior too inexperienced to chance.

I did see Giles's excellent run-out, and I should of course be loath to use phrases which Blofeld relies on (a buffoon is an excellent description for him, alas - he seems to have lost the plot in recent years).

But there's no escaping the fact that Giles was utterly woeful in this Test - his run out aside, his only contribution appears to have been to let Clarke & Martyn get their eye in at 100/3 in Australia's second innings.  A poor repayment of Vaughan's show of faith in him.

As for batsmen - I was kidding about Hick, of course!  You may be right about Thorpey - and that would be a shame; that being so, Ed Joyce might be a good call.  Ali Cook should be spared - he is too important for England's future.

I've not seen enough of Swann to judge; I can only hope he's better than Gareth Batty - who on each occasion I've seen him in a big game (e.g. last season's C&G final) has been dire.  I still think the suggestion of Collingwood is the best I've heard in a while...

As for GO Jones, perhaps it's my anger at the way he threw his wicket away so pathetically yesterday, but whatever - his performance was simply not good enough.  My instinct is that it's between Fozzie and Read as to his potential replacements - and I agree with the assessment that, mystifyingly, the selectors appear to have forgotten about Fozzie.  He's the ideal choice - better with the gloves than Jones; better with the bat than Read.  Jones will stay for Egbaston, but if we lose that in three and a bit days, I expect that calls for the axe to be wielded will become deafening.

As for the bowling, Freddy needs to sort his radar out - too many down leg.  Apart from that, the bowling is the least of our worries...

Matt

Think you maybe be right about Giles, he has been a good solid pro for England, and I am sure he does not the side down on purpose. However it may be time to let him go. Thanks for agreeing with me about Blofeld, my dear old thing - t%$&*r.

I think we do have some good young batsmen around and agree that Cook ought to be spared the Aussies, but maybe go to Pakistan and India this winter. Ed Joyce from What I have seen is good, in form and fairly experiened. I think his qualification was from 1st July.

I think Graeme Swann blotted his copy book a little with Fletcher when he went to s.Africa about 4/5 years ago. He seems to have rehabilitated himself and movng to Notts has helped him as well, and I can assure you Matt he is 10 times better than Gareth Batty, decent bloke but not an international.

From our past mistakes i really do not see the point of screaming for someones head when they are not up to the task of competing against this Aussie side. You ask all the other international sides how to beat them in a series. None has since 1991.

Who would have thought a few years ago that we would say that England have a decent pace attack, in terms of serious pace the best in the world apart maybe from Pakistan. Freddy just needs to decide which side of the wicket to bowl on and tighten up a bit. He is great going at Gilchrist and the other lefties.

The other mistake that the ECB have made is making the 1st Test at Lords, it is 70 odd years since we beat them there. Should have started at Edgbaston or Headingly (although Leeds does not have a test this year).

A better and gutsier all round performance is needed at Edgbaston.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Should be no one has beaten them since 2001 - should have gone to specsavers.

 

[C C Csiders]

Quote[/b] (canveyshrimper @ July 25 2005,15:41)]The other mistake that the ECB have made is making the 1st Test at Lords, it is 70 odd years since we beat them there. Should have started at Edgbaston or Headingly (although Leeds does not have a test this year).

Spot on. Bizaare decision especially as the wicket was always going to suit McGrath and inspire the Aussies in general.

On top of that we should have started the series at the beginning of June when the conditions would have favoured us more, and maybe caught the Aussies cold, as was evidenced by their early 1-day performances.

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

England's record at Lords was pretty poor against most teams up until the last but one time we played the Windies there (the game where we bowled them out for 54).

The square was relaid the year before that series and since then it has probably been our most successful ground. I can certainly understand playing the first game at Lords more than I can understand playing at Old Trafford instead of Headingley and starting in August instead of May.

 

[ESG]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ July 25 2005,15:19)]

Quote[/b] (C C Csiders @ July 25 2005,15:04)]I am trying my best to think of someone with Test experience who is NOT Robert Key!

How about Andy Flower...?!

 

That would be bloody entertaining... after all, he's now a British citizen, isn't he?!

Matt

P.S. I agree that Bell should stay for the Egbaston test - it would be too ridiculously knee-jerk to drop him now...

Stuart Law is qualified now and i know hes 36 but that would really p**s them off if he played did the buisness ?

I say again Matt Prior behind the timbers